Will BBCE authenticated items take a dip?

[pip]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

Your at a card show: you see a BBCE wrapped 1978 baseball box vs. the same box unwrapped.


re-sale value is clearly in favor of the BBCE box.

as far as grading box "condition" GAI graded unopened boxes for a short period of time.

I'd have more interest in the unwrapped box because you can actually see the condition of the packs inside and examine them for yourself. I didn't see the point of a premium before the BBCE trainwreck and I certainly don't see one now.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Boredlawyer

Let's be realistic.

The entire premise of "secretive ninja skills to verify whether a box of cards, which was never factory-sealed with cellophane, hasn't been tampered with, involving unknown criteria known only to one man, but taken as gospel" was weird, and the hobby put an inordinate amount of faith in it.

Regardless of whether the guy is stand-up/made a mistake, it was going to fail at some point. Unless you're buying something directly from the manufacturer, there's always some level of risk. Yeah, it was really fun to hold unopened wax from 2017-2021, when the prices never dropped. For the fifteen years before that, just about every single release, with the exception of a few key Bowman/Topps base releases, lost value from year to year. Most hobby boxes that cost $100 in 2004 cost like, $45 in 2014. Factor in the redemptions, and outside of a few rookie-specific releases (or something like first year A&G), you probably lost money.

The only thing that seems to carry any value is the "FASC" designation for boxes which have a single enormous case hit, like early SP Legendary Cuts. Even then, you could always open "FASC" boxes until you landed the case hit, and sell the rest. That's such a small amount of the hobby at this point, I don't understand why people were paying huge bucks to get their boxes cellophaned.

It seems that the larger issue is people holding a huge amount of unopened wax thought it was like holding QQQ based on the last four years of upward prices.

Steve isn't the only expert unopened authenticator. There are many people who know just as much, some even more, about vintage unopened product. It's just like any other skill -- if you put in the time and work to educate yourself and build up the experience you can learn how to tell between untampered and tampered product.

One collector, who for a very long time had the nicest unopened collection probably in the world with a complete run of both Topps and Bowman packs* (and even some others, like Goudeys) is working on a book that I imagine will be an enormous help to many collectors interested in getting into unopened packs but are too wary to do so.

* I think he may have been missing a penny pack, maybe a '56?

So it isn't that Steve is some magic wizard that everyone bends to his will, it's just that he's the only one that's been selling vintage unopened with an absolutely stellar reputation for the last 25 years. Not a lot of place where you can go and pick up a '76 Topps pack and not have to worry if it's been tampered with.

Would I still inspect the pack when I get it so that I'm 100% convinced it's good, too? You're dam right. But it's a great feeling knowing that you're getting fresh material. My ENTIRE star/RC card showing on top or bottom of a rack pack came from BBCE when I would just get 5 or 10 rack packs in an order. On one order I just tossed in 3 packs of '85 Leaf and one of them had a Clemens RC on the back.

It's stuff like that that has given Steve such a committed following. Has he fecked up? Sure. The Schmidt cello. Jose's product. Other times, too. But they're honest mistakes in a sea of nefarious agents. How many honest dealers are there left? Not enough to fill a roller coaster.

At some point, I imagine we'll get the proof we're looking for and the case will turn into a pumpkin but it won't affect BBCE product values in the least. They don't have any professional competition. Who's going to do what they do, as well as they do it?

Arthur

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by Pacmeyer

The Pokemon case controversy is good for collectors. It gets the word out that buyers should look more closely at all sealed wax before buying. Anyone who thinks it's only about attacking BBCE is telling others how to spend their money.

I agree with this 100%. Everyone that collects unopened product should take the time to learn how to detect tampered material on their own. Having an expert sign off is good but being able to do it yourself is even more valuable.

Arthur

[GlenSepper]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Steve isn't the only expert unopened authenticator. There are many people who know just as much, some even more, about vintage unopened product. It's just like any other skill -- if you put in the time and work to educate yourself and build up the experience you can learn how to tell between untampered and tampered product.

One collector, who for a very long time had the nicest unopened collection probably in the world with a complete run of both Topps and Bowman packs* (and even some others, like Goudeys) is working on a book that I imagine will be an enormous help to many collectors interested in getting into unopened packs but are too wary to do so.

* I think he may have been missing a penny pack, maybe a '56?

So it isn't that Steve is some magic wizard that everyone bends to his will, it's just that he's the only one that's been selling vintage unopened with an absolutely stellar reputation for the last 25 years. Not a lot of place where you can go and pick up a '76 Topps pack and not have to worry if it's been tampered with.

Would I still inspect the pack when I get it so that I'm 100% convinced it's good, too? You're dam right. But it's a great feeling knowing that you're getting fresh material. My ENTIRE star/RC card showing on top or bottom of a rack pack came from BBCE when I would just get 5 or 10 rack packs in an order. On one order I just tossed in 3 packs of '85 Leaf and one of them had a Clemens RC on the back.

It's stuff like that that has given Steve such a committed following. Has he fecked up? Sure. The Schmidt cello. Jose's product. Other times, too. But they're honest mistakes in a sea of nefarious agents. How many honest dealers are there left? Not enough to fill a roller coaster.

At some point, I imagine we'll get the proof we're looking for and the case will turn into a pumpkin but it won't affect BBCE product values in the least. They don't have any professional competition. Who's going to do what they do, as well as they do it?

Arthur

In a post on the previous page you said you weren't defending him. This sure seems like a vigorous defense.

[HarryLime]

Originally Posted by GlenSepper

In a post on the previous page you said you weren't defending him. This sure seems like a vigorous defense.

Everything isn't black or white. I'm not defending him in regard to the Pokemon case. I think Vegas would have the case as favored to be a fake. But as a businessman over the last 25 years? Yeah, I have had nothing but great experiences dealing with Steve and BBCE. They have more of my confidence than most dealers in the hobby.

Arthur

[GlenSepper]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Everything isn't black or white. I'm not defending him in regard to the Pokemon case. I think Vegas would have the case as favored to be a fake. But as a businessman over the last 25 years? Yeah, I have had nothing but great experiences dealing with Steve and BBCE. They have more of my confidence than most dealers in the hobby.

Arthur

No everything isn't black and white. Plenty of nice guys in this hobby have, unfortunately, proven to be charlatans.

I literally have no opinion of Steve as I'm simply not interested in vintage unopened which is where his expertise is claimed. My entire collection consists of modern unopened retail that I bought myself over the past 20 odd years. Much of it when "true hobbyists" shunned retail. It was a fun collecting backwater.

Just interesting to see posters acting like they have no skin in the game when they seemingly have plenty.

[HarryLime]

It's got to be amazing to be so sure of yourself that the only logical explanation for someone to disagree with you is if they have ulterior motives to make money.

You can fit all of my BBCE-wrapped boxes in a baby's car seat. But yeah, the only possible explanation must be that I'm heavily invested in BBCE product.

Arthur

[Pacmeyer]

Originally Posted by GlenSepper

No everything isn't black and white. Plenty of nice guys in this hobby have, unfortunately, proven to be charlatans.

I literally have no opinion of Steve as I'm simply not interested in vintage unopened which is where his expertise is claimed. My entire collection consists of modern unopened retail that I bought myself over the past 20 odd years. Much of it when "true hobbyists" shunned retail. It was a fun collecting backwater.

Just interesting to see posters acting like they have no skin in the game when they seemingly have plenty.

BBCE is expanding its authentication services to modern wax which was pointed out earlier in this thread.

If your only reason for posting is to say gotcha, better to have stayed in the woodwork.

[GlenSepper]

Originally Posted by Pacmeyer

BBCE is expanding its authentication services to modern wax which was pointed out earlier in this thread.

If your only reason for posting is to say gotcha, better to have stayed in the woodwork.

As this is a discussion board I'll feel free to post without your permission. Thanks for the advice, though.

Further, I had not made any posts prior so I'm hardly operating in a "gotcha" position. I was just pointing out that various defenders of BBCE have said they have limited financial exposure to BBCE and/or are not, in fact, defending him when the opposite appears to be true in both cases.

I realize he's expanding to modern; what does that have to do with anything I posted? I don't buy product on the secondary market and therefore won't require his obviously expert authentication.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by pip

I'd have more interest in the unwrapped box because you can actually see the condition of the packs inside and examine them for yourself. I didn't see the point of a premium before the BBCE trainwreck and I certainly don't see one now.

clearly, there IS a want, otherwise BBCE, PSA, CGC, etc, would not exist.


Not everyone has significant experience in the vintage market like you pip, and when it comes to selling, certified/graded products carry a premium over ungraded.

[Pacmeyer]

Originally Posted by GlenSepper

As this is a discussion board I'll feel free to post without your permission. Thanks for the advice, though.

Further, I had not made any posts prior so I'm hardly operating in a "gotcha" position. I was just pointing out that various defenders of BBCE have said they have limited financial exposure to BBCE and/or are not, in fact, defending him when the opposite appears to be true in both cases.

I realize he's expanding to modern; what does that have to do with anything I posted? I don't buy product on the secondary market and therefore won't require his obviously expert authentication.

Of course keep posting because insinuating that everyone defending BBCE has boatloads of their wax on hand is ever so useful. Also, implying that the company could be led by a charlatan, but you have no actual opinion or even any interest in vintage wax, is even better

[pip]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

[/B]


clearly, there IS a want, otherwise BBCE, PSA, CGC, etc, would not exist.


Not everyone has significant experience in the vintage market like you pip, and when it comes to selling, certified/graded products carry a premium over ungraded.

One thing I have long observed from the BBCE wrapping is that it actually damages some wax boxes over time by "pulling in" the corners and distorting the original box shape and integrity. I've particularly noticed this recently on some 1977 SW boxes that have been sold by AH's. It's somewhat reminiscent of the damage done to the edges of cards by the black SGC inserts.

[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by pip

One thing I have long observed from the BBCE wrapping is that it actually damages some wax boxes over time by "pulling in" the corners and distorting the original box shape and integrity.

Ouch! As a self proclaimed wax box Condition Super Freak, this would not be OK with me ….. 1st I’ve heard of this

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by pip

One thing I have long observed from the BBCE wrapping is that it actually damages some wax boxes over time by "pulling in" the corners and distorting the original box shape and integrity. I've particularly noticed this recently on some 1977 SW boxes that have been sold by AH's. It's somewhat reminiscent of the damage done to the edges of cards by the black SGC inserts.

I've seen that with their rack pack holders but this is the first I've heard of it happening to boxes. Do you have pictures or links?

[pip]

Originally Posted by cardsin47

Ouch! As a self proclaimed wax box Condition Super Freak, this would not be OK with me ….. 1st I’ve heard of this

As you know, some of the older wax boxes are worth quite a sum by themselves (sans wax packs). In the example of 1977 SW, I'd wager that an empty super high-grade first (blue) series box is probably at least in the $2000 to $3000 range.

[pip]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

I've seen that with their rack pack holders but this is the first I've heard of it happening to boxes. Do you have pictures or links?

Search some of the major auctions. It's mostly with vintage wax boxes that I see at shows -- those that have packs inside that were not fully designed to fill out the box.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by pip

Search some of the major auctions. It's mostly with vintage wax boxes that I see at shows -- those that have packs inside that were not fully designed to fill out the box.

I just went to their site and can get an idea of what you mean. Some of those boxes were rough to begin with though. I've always thought they should go to a GAI type holder and just upcharge people.

https://www.bbcexchange.com/1979-Top...opened-Wax-Box

[blackbears86]

I'm happy with the wrap on my 79 opc box, but some of his boxes do look a little tight.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk

[pip]

Originally Posted by Archangel1775

I just went to their site and can get an idea of what you mean. Some of those boxes were rough to begin with though. I've always thought they should go to a GAI type holder and just upcharge people.

https://www.bbcexchange.com/1979-Top...opened-Wax-Box

Here's an example. Over time, the shape of the box corner and edge and going to be seriously distorted with the BBCE wrap on it. Why not create some type of filler inside to protect the box or, as you suggest, use a GAI-style holder?

[blackbears86]

the wrap is too tight on that box. Certainly a GAI type holder would be much better.

But damn, that is a NICE box!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cardsin47]

Originally Posted by pip

Here's an example. Over time, the shape of the box corner and edge and going to be seriously distorted with the BBCE wrap on it. Why not create some type of filler inside to protect the box or, as you suggest, use a GAI-style holder?

Must be a fine line between wrap too tight / not tight enough / just right

[pip]

Originally Posted by blackbears86

the wrap is too tight on that box. Certainly a GAI type holder would be much better.

But damn, that is a NICE box!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes. Those first two series OPC boxes have really shot up in value. Easily $20k+ in anything that is presentable.

[blackbears86]

Originally Posted by pip

Yes. Those first two series OPC boxes have really shot up in value. Easily $20k+ in anything that is presentable.

I think the non-sports card market has significant potential.


but that's a whole other thread.

Let's get back to bashing BBCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dizzydolse]

Originally Posted by Pacmeyer

Of course keep posting because insinuating that everyone defending BBCE has boatloads of their wax on hand is ever so useful. Also, implying that the company could be led by a charlatan, but you have no actual opinion or even any interest in vintage wax, is even better

Hey Pac, I didn't get that insinuation from his post at all. Not even a little bit. He actually made the only point worth noting in this whole thread, which is that plenty of times "nice guys" in this hobby have proven to be charlatans. How many times have we seen the players, who are seemingly at "the top" of the hobby, turn out to be the biggest scumbags imaginable. They gain a reputation as honest people, and build a great reputation, and turn out to be the exact opposite. It's almost a prerequisite of this hobby if you want to make a name for yourself at this point. BODA has done an exceptional job at pointing out many of them in recent years, but it is a common theme. Most of the idiots at the "top" are frequently all friends with each other.

If you've been in this hobby long enough, or even been an active member on these boards long enough, you'll know how sinister it is. Many collectors, or just truly unbiased hobbyists simply don't care at this point because we realize it's just part of it. But to come to the defense of these people, when all you need to do is use common sense and a seemingly infantile recollection of all the corruption that goes on to know when something is up, it comes across as obnoxious and suspect.

[dizzydolse]

Originally Posted by GlenSepper

No everything isn't black and white. Plenty of nice guys in this hobby have, unfortunately, proven to be charlatans.

I literally have no opinion of Steve as I'm simply not interested in vintage unopened which is where his expertise is claimed. My entire collection consists of modern unopened retail that I bought myself over the past 20 odd years. Much of it when "true hobbyists" shunned retail. It was a fun collecting backwater.

Just interesting to see posters acting like they have no skin in the game when they seemingly have plenty.

Great point, common theme