2020 Politics Thread - Enter At Your Own Risk - RULES IN OP

[free2131]

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

The Russia investigation had zero to do voting "fraud". That doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

So you don't think that alleging a political party in our country is conspiring to directly steal an election is more damaging than alleging another country is in league with a single politician to spread lies that MIGHT influence voters to choose one candidate over another?

[Astros19]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Again, it was not proven false. I know, it's semantics to some, but there is a big difference between "proven false" and "unproven".

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Look up Steele dossier Hillary Clinton.
I guess the same would hold true for her and her campaign then.
Amirite?

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[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by free2131

So you don't think that alleging a political party in our country is conspiring to directly steal an election is more damaging than alleging another country is in league with a single politician to spread lies that MIGHT influence voters to choose one candidate over another?

No. Yes. Umm. Your post is worded weirdly. Hold on...

I don't think the first part is more damaging than the second part.

[Astros19]

Originally Posted by free2131

I meant charges as in charges in the court of public opinion. I DON'T think the claims against Trump being in league with Russia was okay, BUT, I do think that what Trump is alleging is happening in the 2020 election is MORE dangerous and damaging than what Democrats were alleging during the 2016 election.

I don't think anyone here is surprised by your opinion, just as I'm sure they're not surprised I disagree with you.

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[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by Astros19

Look up Steele dossier Hillary Clinton.
I guess the same would hold true for her and her campaign then.
Amirite?

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I really don't feel like doing the research, lol. It's just that I am feeling lazy right now. Later maybe.

I honestly don't know whether anything was proven against her.

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[mike1498]

Originally Posted by free2131

So you don't think that alleging a political party in our country is conspiring to directly steal an election is more damaging than alleging another country is in league with a single politician to spread lies that MIGHT influence voters to choose one candidate over another?

Do you watch the media? If you switch "country" to media it's what happens in our OWN country. But yes, tell me how CNN spreading lies is any better than Russia and how we should bring a candidate down for four years about that too.

[discostu]

Originally Posted by NeedChapmans

Have you blacked out the last four years already? (There were no charges against Trump BTW so that statement is pretty insane to say).

For four years, the claim was Trump was an agent of Russia. Everyday, we had unnamed sources create fake narratives and stories about lawyers in Prague and Wikileaks emails etc. etc. You think all of that is just hunky dory, while people claiming voter fraud now is outrageous?

All of the Russia stuff was vetted and no evidence came out. Likely true of the voter fraud claims as well but if you truly believe your your team's claims were OK, and red teams claims are beyond the pale; perhaps there's a more obvious reason for that.

You are far better at numbers, than posts like this.

[Astros19]

Originally Posted by free2131

So you don't think that alleging a political party in our country is conspiring to directly steal an election is more damaging than alleging another country is in league with a single politician to spread lies that MIGHT influence voters to choose one candidate over another?

They didn't just spread lies to influence an upcoming election. They tried to say an election was stolen from them.
They did everything they could to make people believe Trump's election victory was tainted and invalid.
But I'm guessing you truly know that.

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[free2131]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

The bolded is the only part of this statement I agree with.

Which is the worse allegation and would make you doubt the validity of the voting process?

1) I ask my friend to tell you that the guy I'm running against slaps puppies and kicks kittens, which makes you reconsider voting for him.

2) I take you ballot and change your vote from him to me.

That's the difference between the two sets of allegations, in my opinion. Both are wrong. One is directly harmful to our democratic process.

[Astros19]

Originally Posted by discostu

You are far better at numbers, than posts like this.

Are you also ignoring Clinton's campaign involvement with the false Steele dossier?

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[Astros19]

Originally Posted by free2131

Which is the worse allegation and would make you doubt the validity of the voting process?



1) I ask my friend to tell you that the guy I'm running against slaps puppies and kicks kittens, which makes you reconsider voting for him.



2) I take you ballot and change your vote from him to me.



That's the difference between the two sets of allegations, in my opinion. Both are wrong. One is directly harmful to our democratic process.

Worst analogy ever.
Come on man, as Joe would say.

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[mike1498]

Originally Posted by Astros19

Worst analogy ever.
Come on man, as Joe would say.

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You have to understand, the left doesn't like when the shoe's on the other foot so their trying to rationalize why what they did the last four years in any different than what the right is doing now. It's a shame that the left had to act like this but I can't say I feel bad.

[NeedChapmans]

Trump just got a 60/40 batch of 40,000 votes from Maricopa.

He's actually on track right now w/ a real chance. Needs 57.05% of the remaining vote to pull it out

[free2131]

Originally Posted by Astros19

Worst analogy ever.
Come on man, as Joe would say.

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So, you're saying that the media, Democrats, etc were alleging that Russian agents sent in ballots that weren't cast or somehow destroyed ballots for Hillary Clinton?

Because Trump is alleging that is exactly what is happening in this election. That massive voter fraud is happening. Actual changing of or throwing out/destroying ballots of his to make Biden the winner.

[NeedChapmans]

Originally Posted by discostu

You are far better at numbers, than posts like this.

Opinion!

[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by free2131

Which is the worse allegation and would make you doubt the validity of the voting process?



1) I ask my friend to tell you that the guy I'm running against slaps puppies and kicks kittens, which makes you reconsider voting for him.



2) I take you ballot and change your vote from him to me.



That's the difference between the two sets of allegations, in my opinion. Both are wrong. One is directly harmful to our democratic process.

I don't get what you're trying to say.

Which of those two scenarios is worse? I suppose that depends on information not included in the query.

You say both are wrong. I say one is shady and one is illegal. You say one is directly harmful. I say both are.

I'm also not sure what the point is or how this addresses what we were discussing.

I'm not trying to be belligerent, I just don't make the connection.

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[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

I don't get what you're trying to say.

Which of those two scenarios is worse? I suppose that depends on information not included in the query.

You say both are wrong. I say one is shady and one is illegal. You say one is directly harmful. I say both are.

I'm also not sure what the point is or how this addresses what we were discussing.

I'm not trying to be belligerent, I just don't make the connection.

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Let me add to this.

My issue isn't that claims were made (either of the claims). My issue is that baseless claims were made (both of the claims).

Both claims were without evidence to support them. Both claims are equally ridiculous and outrageous. Both claims are ineffective in swaying a voter of even below-average intelligence. Both claims are a waste of time. Equally.

Russian disinformation claims and voter fraud claims are equally laughable when not supported by evidence.

[mike1498]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Let me add to this.

My issue isn't that claims were made (either of the claims). My issue is that baseless claims were made (both of the claims).

Both claims were without evidence to support them. Both claims are equally ridiculous and outrageous. Both claims are ineffective in swaying a voter of even below-average intelligence. Both claims are a waste of time. Equally.

Russian disinformation claims and voter fraud claims are equally laughable when not supported by evidence.

This is the correct answer.

[free2131]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

You say both are wrong. I say one is shady and one is illegal. You say one is directly harmful. I say both are.

When I say that one is directly harmful, what I mean is that it is actually altering an existing vote or illegitimately adding votes. Even if Russia is spreading disinformation, a voter still has to believe that disinformation and still has to vote. That person's vote is legitimate, but was based on illegitimate information.

To me, the act of actively altering vote totals is more damaging to our democratic process than a misinformation campaign that MIGHT sway the opinion of a voter.

[Astros19]

Originally Posted by free2131

So, you're saying that the media, Democrats, etc were alleging that Russian agents sent in ballots that weren't cast or somehow destroyed ballots for Hillary Clinton?



Because Trump is alleging that is exactly what is happening in this election. That massive voter fraud is happening. Actual changing of or throwing out/destroying ballots of his to make Biden the winner.

No I'm looking at the other side of the coin. If anybody was guilty of meddling in an election, look at Hillary and her campaign.

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[free2131]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Russian disinformation claims and voter fraud claims are equally laughable when not supported by evidence.

Agreed (although it has proven that foreign governments are actively engaging in an overall attempt to disrupt our election process through misinformation campaigns).

My point is that if BOTH claims were true, one would have a direct impact on the election and one would have an indirect impact. One is more damaging to our democratic process than another.

[irv]

Originally Posted by JustRachel

Again, it was not proven false. I know, it's semantics to some, but there is a big difference between "proven false" and "unproven".

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Originally Posted by JustRachel

I really don't feel like doing the research, lol. It's just that I am feeling lazy right now. Later maybe.

I honestly don't know whether anything was proven against her.

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I thought I'd save you the trouble. There are more, but this should suffice?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUeo...ature=youtu.be

[Astros19]

Originally Posted by mike1498

This is the correct answer.

Other than one's still being investigated and the other already has been, for years.

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[JustRachel]

Originally Posted by free2131

When I say that one is directly harmful, what I mean is that it is actually altering an existing vote or illegitimately adding votes. Even if Russia is spreading disinformation, a voter still has to believe that disinformation and still has to vote. That person's vote is legitimate, but was based on illegitimate information.



To me, the act of actively altering vote totals is more damaging to our democratic process than a misinformation campaign that MIGHT sway the opinion of a voter.

This is reasonable. I just don't correlate it to what has happened.

If the claims had actual merit, then I'd get it. But they don't.

The claims themselves are silly.

If these acts actually happened, you'd be right.

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[Astros19]

Originally Posted by free2131

When I say that one is directly harmful, what I mean is that it is actually altering an existing vote or illegitimately adding votes. Even if Russia is spreading disinformation, a voter still has to believe that disinformation and still has to vote. That person's vote is legitimate, but was based on illegitimate information.



To me, the act of actively altering vote totals is more damaging to our democratic process than a misinformation campaign that MIGHT sway the opinion of a voter.

Sounds kind of like you're arguing Trump's case.

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