Brad Hand to the Indians - Page 5

jataman2612 · 07-19-2018, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prospects

The Indians are 9 games over .500 in a division with no other teams close to .500

This team needs 2-3 super stars to even be taken seriously in playoffs

1. Lindor
2. Ramirez
3. Kluber

Ray27Ray52 · 07-19-2018, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prospects

I do not want the idea of my posts to be mistaken.

You don't have to worry about that. None of us really know what you are saying anyway.

prospects · 07-19-2018, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray27Ray52

You don't have to worry about that. None of us really know what you are saying anyway.

besides this comment, I am enjoying this debate. I am not trying to be mean, just stating my opinion.

If hand proves me wrong, I will come in this thread in october and admit it.

prospects · 07-19-2018, 01:22 PM

And one more thing, if Hand throws a scoreless inning in the playoffs in the 8th inning of a 7-0 game the Indians are losing, that does not count as proving me wrong lol. Pitching under actual pressure proves me wrong.

tkraft24 · 07-19-2018, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prospects

I do not want the idea of my posts to be mistaken, yes they could get better but they have underachieved BIG time. My main point is brad hand has never been in the postseason and I do not think he will help this team.

I’ll place my trust in Brad Hand over Neil Ramirez or OP or Otero or Olson.

no10pin · 07-19-2018, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prospects

The Indians are 9 games over .500 in a division with no other teams close to .500

This team needs 2-3 super stars to even be taken seriously in playoffs

Recent history has shown repeatedly that the team with the most or biggest superstars doesn't always win in the playoffs. Getting to the dance is the key, all bets are off after that.

Also, I'm assuming that you aren't counting Lindor and Ramirez as superstars for some reason.

reddragonthe · 07-19-2018, 01:28 PM

The years remaining of control are not mentioned here enough as people get furious on one side or the other. I don’t have a dog in the fight beyond a couple Mejia refractors and maybe a few more that I buy as panic selling sets in.

But economic reality for teams these days is club control is incredibly valuable. It makes a 2nd or 3rd starter into a very expensive trade asset (I’m looking at you Eloy Jimenez for Q trade).

So if you look at just the baseball aspect and the “value” or a reliever with a limited track record of success... then yea, feels like your top prospect would get you more than an 8th inning guy because your previously unhittable guy is human again.

Mejia was position blocked (2x) and maybe a bit fussy about his positional preferences depending on who you listen to. He’s big league ready or pertnear. He’s either a sure fire all star or average. But either way, probably blocked. You see you have a windo if a couple years here so you want to go for it. But you are also Cleveland so you need to be economical.

They filled a weakness on the team and did it with CHEAP controlled assets. So yea, you didn’t get a sexy return for Mejia... but who can they now sign given the cheap flexible contracts they took back?

Do I like Quintana as much as I liked Eloy’s potential? God no. Eloy does Nasty Nasty things to baseballs. BUT Quentin means we have more room to keep the elite bats when the tax
Man comes calling. Controlled cheap resources are huge when it comes to contract and roster economics.

SaveMeTheGum · 07-19-2018, 01:29 PM

"A man without hand is not a man. I've got so much hand I'm coming out of my gloves."

awz50 · 07-19-2018, 01:32 PM

Wow that's a big trade and a lot to give up

blackandgold · 07-19-2018, 02:05 PM

The Marlins traded an all star outfield and 2nd baseman-Did not get 1 top 50 prospect in the game Padres trade 1 bullpen arm and get a top 25 prospect SAY WHAT??????

awz50 · 07-19-2018, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackandgold

The Marlins traded an all star outfield and 2nd baseman-Did not get 1 top 50 prospect in the game Padres trade 1 bullpen arm and get a top 25 prospect SAY WHAT??????

Desperation man

It works

blackandgold · 07-19-2018, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awz50

Desperation man

It works

Better yet just looked at KLaw he got him #5 Booyah!!!!

jstasyk1121 · 07-19-2018, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prospects

I do not want the idea of my posts to be mistaken, yes they could get better but they have underachieved BIG time. My main point is brad hand has never been in the postseason and I do not think he will help this team.

wouldnt it make more sense to make this argument if he actually had been in the playoffs multiple times and sucked?? i dont understand the logic of "he has never been in playoffs so he will suck in playoffs"...??

blackandgold · 07-19-2018, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awz50

Desperation man

It works

On a serious note that’s what me and I believe Hollywood42 stressed last year with Stanton and the Marlins -wait for desperate times and the prospects will come.

ntgm37 · 07-19-2018, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prospects

The trade is bad because Hand is overrated. They paid for an andrew miller and got a brad hand

How is it possible to average 300 posts a month? You must have a really boring life.

SethMurphy · 07-19-2018, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prospects

The Indians are 9 games over .500 in a division with no other teams close to .500

This team needs 2-3 super stars to even be taken seriously in playoffs

Do you know why they have struggled to keep up in wins with Houston, Boston and New York?????????? Their awful bullpen work so far this season!!!!

They are only 12-12 in one-run games this year, 1-6 in extra innings games, they have only a 68% save percentage this year as a bullpen, and in relief the bullpen is 6-16 on the season, 31% of inherited runners have scored.

On the flip side, they are 5th in the AL in batting average, 4th in OPS, 1st in steals, 3rd in homers, 4th in runs scored, all while having subpar production from CF & RF this season (Naquin, Zimmer, Rajai, Guyer, Greg Allen, Melky) Chisenhall was solid in 29 G, but is hurt.

Their biggest need is pitching, Gomes is a top-notch defensive catcher and someone the pitchers trust. If Mejia can extend this teams window to win now then this was a smart trade. There is no reason to think Cleveland can't compete with Houston (3-4 against them this season), New York (2-5 this season, but just went 2-2 before the break) or Boston (haven't played this year).

What's your argument other than Hand hasn't played in the playoffs before? Or Mejia has potential we know nothing about?

Because once upon a not so long time ago Jose Ramirez had never played in the playoffs. Francisco Lindor had never played in the playoffs.

Hollywood42 · 07-19-2018, 02:52 PM

Sorta, I just think the Marlins completely messed things up in handling Stanton. Obviously the big contract was a complicating factor, but they went into the situation essentially saying they didn't care if they didn't get any quality pieces back, but they were going to get rid of that contract. Should they have approached and handled things differently, they should have been able to get at least one quality prospect for Stanton. But IIRC, they didn't really get any top 100 guys for him. Sure, they got Castro as part of that deal, but that was supposed to be a quick flip for another decent prospect, yet here we are today with Castro still on the Marlins

It's kinda the same idea but in a different way. Indians were a little desperate to improve their bullpen (reasonably so), so they paid up and got some help. Marlins were insanely desperate to get rid of Stanton, so that's what they did without getting anybody at all beneficial to them

I actually don't think this Mejia/Hand trade is that bad, but I suppose it's somewhat of a similar situation from a desperation aspect, though from a different point of view

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackandgold

On a serious note that’s what me and I believe Hollywood42 stressed last year with Stanton and the Marlins -wait for desperate times and the prospects will come.

lambeauleap87 · 07-19-2018, 02:55 PM

I'm over the moon with this trade, great move by Antonetti and Chernoff to get this done for significantly less than what the industry expected the cost to be. Best reliever on the market with several years of control, plus adding another solid arm in Cimber. This also kicks the Indians window open several more years because that window was getting short with Miller/Allen set to leave.

It also helps to add another (almost) top tier arm to the 'pen (0.7 fWAR after a rough month, although WAR may not be best for relievers) with a crazy K/9 and the ability to go multiple innings. If Miller can come back healthy, Miller/Allen/Hand shutting the door behind Kluber/Bauer/Clevinger/Carrasco makes for a scary run of pitchers if the Indians get a lead.

They have starting pitching and an elite infield locked in for awhile, the bullpen and outfield needed addressed for the Indians to be a contender for several more years. This really helps to answer that bullpen question.

I'm sad to see Mejia go, but I'm glad the Indians were able to maximize value. He wants to catch, but he's not much of a catcher. He refused to play OF at the ML level, and he was a terrible third baseman. There's no spot for him, and his bat loses a lot of value in a corner OF slot. The Indians weren't going to let him catch behind Perez/Gomes. It makes a ton of sense for both teams; the Indians needed a reliever, and they got the best one available...plus a secondary piece.

Bottom line, they extended the window, and they increased their chances at winning this year significantly, all while getting much better value than what the industry expected. Huge, outstanding move by the Indians. If anybody's after Mejia stuff, though, I've got some to get rid of!

prospects · 07-19-2018, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jstasyk1121

wouldnt it make more sense to make this argument if he actually had been in the playoffs multiple times and sucked?? i dont understand the logic of "he has never been in playoffs so he will suck in playoffs"...??

chris sale.

JWBlue · 07-19-2018, 03:14 PM

Scouts say he might be able to stick at catcher. If he can't he is not nearly as valuable.

no10pin · 07-19-2018, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prospects

chris sale.

Right, since Chris Sale pitched badly in his first playoff experience, that is now the rule for all pitchers. Sound logic there.

lambeauleap87 · 07-19-2018, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JWBlue

Scouts say he might be able to stick at catcher. If he can't he is not nearly as valuable.

He wants to catch, and he has a cannon. His framing, calling, and receiving skills might get to adequate, but I think it will help him greatly to be catching every day in AAA compared to what the Indians had him doing.

SethMurphy · 07-19-2018, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prospects

chris sale.

Chris Sale's first start wasn't any good.

His second start ended prematurely because it was an elimination game

4.2 IP, 4 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 0 BB, 6 K, 77 pitches against the stacked Houston offense. Not that bad and if it was a different game it probably ends up as a 6 IP, 2 R game as well, and we all move on.

So one bad start from one of the best pitchers in the game gives you reason to assume every pitcher in baseball will be bad if they haven't been in the postseason before???????

You must really not be a smart baseball fan at all

awz50 · 07-19-2018, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prospects

chris sale.

Soo we only base things off one pitcher?

Bulls90s · 07-19-2018, 03:56 PM

Wow, #1 overall catching prospect for a closer?

When was the last time that happened?

Mejia reminds me of Pudge!

07-19-2018, 01:28 PM	#107
reddragonthe Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 3,359 rddrgnthe	The years remaining of control are not mentioned here enough as people get furious on one side or the other. I don’t have a dog in the fight beyond a couple Mejia refractors and maybe a few more that I buy as panic selling sets in. But economic reality for teams these days is club control is incredibly valuable. It makes a 2nd or 3rd starter into a very expensive trade asset (I’m looking at you Eloy Jimenez for Q trade). So if you look at just the baseball aspect and the “value” or a reliever with a limited track record of success... then yea, feels like your top prospect would get you more than an 8th inning guy because your previously unhittable guy is human again. Mejia was position blocked (2x) and maybe a bit fussy about his positional preferences depending on who you listen to. He’s big league ready or pertnear. He’s either a sure fire all star or average. But either way, probably blocked. You see you have a windo if a couple years here so you want to go for it. But you are also Cleveland so you need to be economical. They filled a weakness on the team and did it with CHEAP controlled assets. So yea, you didn’t get a sexy return for Mejia... but who can they now sign given the cheap flexible contracts they took back? Do I like Quintana as much as I liked Eloy’s potential? God no. Eloy does Nasty Nasty things to baseballs. BUT Quentin means we have more room to keep the elite bats when the tax Man comes calling. Controlled cheap resources are huge when it comes to contract and roster economics. __________________ I’m here for the pack odds

07-19-2018, 01:29 PM	#108
SaveMeTheGum Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: NH --> CA --> SC Posts: 16,648 Cardboard_Dynamite CardboardDynamite	"A man without hand is not a man. I've got so much hand I'm coming out of my gloves." __________________ Pay fast. Ship fast. Deal with people honestly. IG: CardboardDynamite

07-19-2018, 01:32 PM	#109
awz50 Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: New Hampshire>>>Arizona>>>>Florida Posts: 33,344 awz50	Wow that's a big trade and a lot to give up __________________ Collecting Baseball Hof Autographs 248/351 Blowouts Official Red Sox face of the franchise Eduardo Rodriguez Super Collector

07-19-2018, 02:55 PM	#118
lambeauleap87 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 24,744 LL87	I'm over the moon with this trade, great move by Antonetti and Chernoff to get this done for significantly less than what the industry expected the cost to be. Best reliever on the market with several years of control, plus adding another solid arm in Cimber. This also kicks the Indians window open several more years because that window was getting short with Miller/Allen set to leave. It also helps to add another (almost) top tier arm to the 'pen (0.7 fWAR after a rough month, although WAR may not be best for relievers) with a crazy K/9 and the ability to go multiple innings. If Miller can come back healthy, Miller/Allen/Hand shutting the door behind Kluber/Bauer/Clevinger/Carrasco makes for a scary run of pitchers if the Indians get a lead. They have starting pitching and an elite infield locked in for awhile, the bullpen and outfield needed addressed for the Indians to be a contender for several more years. This really helps to answer that bullpen question. I'm sad to see Mejia go, but I'm glad the Indians were able to maximize value. He wants to catch, but he's not much of a catcher. He refused to play OF at the ML level, and he was a terrible third baseman. There's no spot for him, and his bat loses a lot of value in a corner OF slot. The Indians weren't going to let him catch behind Perez/Gomes. It makes a ton of sense for both teams; the Indians needed a reliever, and they got the best one available...plus a secondary piece. Bottom line, they extended the window, and they increased their chances at winning this year significantly, all while getting much better value than what the industry expected. Huge, outstanding move by the Indians. If anybody's after Mejia stuff, though, I've got some to get rid of! __________________ I collect Packers, former Ohio State Buckeyes, Blue Jackets, and Cleveland Indians/Guardians.

07-19-2018, 03:56 PM	#125
Bulls90s Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,644	Wow, #1 overall catching prospect for a closer? When was the last time that happened? Mejia reminds me of Pudge! __________________ White men cant jump

07-19-2018, 01:22 PM	#104
prospects Banned Join Date: Jan 2018 Posts: 4,059	And one more thing, if Hand throws a scoreless inning in the playoffs in the 8th inning of a 7-0 game the Indians are losing, that does not count as proving me wrong lol. Pitching under actual pressure proves me wrong.

07-19-2018, 02:05 PM	#110
blackandgold Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Lockport La Posts: 9,134 guidry2732	The Marlins traded an all star outfield and 2nd baseman-Did not get 1 top 50 prospect in the game Padres trade 1 bullpen arm and get a top 25 prospect SAY WHAT??????

07-19-2018, 03:14 PM	#120
JWBlue Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 9,642	Scouts say he might be able to stick at catcher. If he can't he is not nearly as valuable.