A Very Important Paypal Dispute Learning Experience

[Stat Monsters]

In a related topic... has anyone ever heard of issues between buyer and seller escalating to the point of criminal vigilante justice? I'm wondering if anyone paid a personal visit to reconcile issues in person (since an exchange of contact information including name, address and often phone numbers is common) or even sending something dangerous or hazardous to the offending party? It seems committing fraud is one loose cannon away from psychotic terrorism.

[Southpas2013]

Originally Posted by pgisback

If the buyer can prove the card he received was counterfeit, what case does the seller have? I think only in the Blowout world does the slab protect the seller from being responsible for the card being a counterfeit. What buyers do with the stuff they buy is up to them. If someone wants to cut their card out of a case to resubmit it or keep it raw, they are allowed to do that with their own property.

The buyer can crack it out the case, but it should not be allowed for a return any longer.

If you want to return the item, return it in the same condition as you bought it, simple. Now there's no way to prove that is the same card, regardless if the PSA case was real or fake. He could have sent the PSA case in for verification as is instead of cracking the card out and resending in, make no sense at all.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Southpas2013

The buyer can crack it out the case, but it should not be allowed for a return any longer.

If you want to return the item, return it in the same condition as you bought it, simple. Now there's no way to prove that is the same card, regardless if the PSA case was real or fake. He could have sent the PSA case in for verification as is instead of cracking the card out and resending in, make no sense at all.

I hate to break it to you, but buyers do not have to care about PSA or their slabs. If a buyer wants to buy a card that is in a PSA holder and take it out, they can. If that card is a counterfeit and not what they bought, they can return it. Being able to sell a counterfeit card and not be responsible makes no sense at all and it honestly scares me how many people think it does.

[salthill]

Originally Posted by pgisback

I hate to break it to you, but buyers do not have to care about PSA or their slabs. If a buyer wants to buy a card that is in a PSA holder and take it out, they can. If that card is a counterfeit and not what they bought, they can return it. Being able to sell a counterfeit card and not be responsible makes no sense at all and it honestly scares me how many people think it does.

I hate to break it to you but it’s equally ludicrous that someone can buy an encapsulated baseball card and return anything other than an encapsulated baseball card.

There’s a fundamental tension here between protection for buyers and sellers. Digging in on both sides and throwing the same ball of crap back and forward isn’t going to resolve this.

The fact is your opinion skews entirely in the favor of the buyer - which has a direct effect of removing any protection for the seller - and you’re comfortable leaving the seller fully exposed. The pushback you’re seeing shows you that most people here aren’t comfortable taking that polar a position.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by salthill

I hate to break it to you but it’s equally ludicrous that someone can buy an encapsulated baseball card and return anything other than an encapsulated baseball card.

There’s a fundamental tension here between protection for buyers and sellers. Digging in on both sides and throwing the same ball of crap back and forward isn’t going to resolve this.

There's no tension. The buyer did not get what he paid for. It absolutely does not matter whether it is in the case or not, lmao. Only in the weird world of blowout can a seller sell someone a counterfeit good and not be responsible.

[salthill]

Originally Posted by pgisback

There's no tension. The buyer did not get what he paid for. It absolutely does not matter whether it is in the case or not, lmao. Only in the weird world of blowout can a seller sell someone a counterfeit good and not be responsible.

Do you accept that your solution opens a huge avenue of fraud against sellers?

[Southpas2013]

Originally Posted by pgisback

I hate to break it to you, but buyers do not have to care about PSA or their slabs. If a buyer wants to buy a card that is in a PSA holder and take it out, they can. If that card is a counterfeit and not what they bought, they can return it. Being able to sell a counterfeit card and not be responsible makes no sense at all and it honestly scares me how many people think it does.

Hate to break it back to you. If you break the card out of the PSA slab and the card is not serial numbered, there is no way to prove the newly cracked card is the same card.

If you want to verify it is real, for the most part that is why folks use PSA/Beckett to authenticate and grade cards, you have to send the slab in and PSA will verify 1) the slab itself is real/fake 2) the card in the slab is real/fake. They will do this service especially with the Jordan RC's.

So if you as a buyer decide to break it out, you now own it, no returns. No way to prove the card in the slab was the same one. I could do that all on ebay, buy Jordan RCs, break them and swap them with fake ones and make an easy sleezy million dollars doing that all day long.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by salthill

The fact is your opinion skews entirely in the favor of the buyer - which has a direct effect of removing any protection for the seller - and you’re comfortable leaving the seller fully exposed. The pushback you’re seeing shows you that most people here aren’t comfortable taking that polar a position.

Nothing protects you as a seller from selling counterfeit goods. No slab, no case, no packaging, nothing. You sell counterfeit goods, you are responsible. The fact you are trying to make a case that you aren't responsible, is incredible.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Southpas2013

Hate to break it back to you. If you break the card out of the PSA slab and the card is not serial numbered, there is no way to prove the newly cracked card is the same card.

If you want to verify it is real, for the most part that is why folks use PSA/Beckett to authenticate and grade cards, you have to send the slab in and PSA will verify 1) the slab itself is real/fake 2) the card in the slab is real/fake. They will do this service especially with the Jordan RC's.

So if you as a buyer decide to break it out, you now own it, no returns. No way to prove the card in the slab was the same one. I could do that all on ebay, buy Jordan RCs, break them and swap them with fake ones and make an easy sleezy million dollars doing that all day long.

Yes, this is an issue that can happen with raw cards or any other sale you make. Absolutely no different that it's a counterfeit wrapped in a slab. You sell someone counterfeit goods you are responsible. The fact you are arguing that you are not because they took the counterfeit they didn't know they bought out of a case that they don't have to care about, is shocking.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by salthill

Do you accept that your solution opens a huge avenue of fraud against sellers?

There's a million openings for fraud against sellers. Buyers can easily buy your raw card, say it's fake, and send you back a replica. Buyers even send back empty packages and claim you are lying. There are so many ways buyers can screw over sellers that it's ridiculous to think a slab protecting a counterfeit somehow changes that.

If you sell someone counterfeit goods you are responsible. It does not matter if it's in a case or not.

[hairyangryfella]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Of course I get it. Does it surprise me you have figured out a way to sell counterfeit goods to people and not be responsible. Absolutely not. It does not matter at all if it's in the case or out of the case, the buyer did not buy a counterfeit MJ. What you guys are talking about is an inconvenience, not a protection. Is it inconvenient the buyer didn't know you sent him a counterfeit card until he took it out of the case, sure. Does that protect you from being responsible for selling him a counterfeit card, absolutely not.

Since you're still here missing the point, are you going to respond as to what the hell you're getting at here??
Because it's one thing to troll, it's a whole other thing calling into question my morals...

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by hairyangryfella

Since you're still here missing the point, are you going to respond as to what the hell you're getting at here??
Because it's one thing to troll, it's a whole other thing calling into question my morals...

I'm just stating a fact that you have figured out a way to sell counterfeit goods to people and not be responsible. Doesn't mean you do it, just that you've figured out a way. I personally cannot imagine how anyone can think they can sell someone a counterfeit good and not be responsible.

[Southpas2013]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Yes, this is an issue that can happen with raw cards or any other sale you make. Absolutely no different that it's a counterfeit wrapped in a slab. You sell someone counterfeit goods you are responsible. The fact you are arguing that you are not because they took the counterfeit they didn't know they bought out of a case that they don't have to care about, is shocking.

I'm ok with accepting a return, as long as the buyer does it properly.

If PSA deems either the PSA slab was fake and/or the card itself, then yes a return should be made, AS LONG AS THE CARD WAS NOT BROKEN OUT OF THE SLAB.

Because once the card is broken out, there is no way for either party to prove it is the same card.

You don't seem to be getting the point.

The fact that they allowed this to happen, we can now go ad buy every Jordan rookie (real ones), break them out, switch them for fakes, keep the real ones.

Return them all as fakes, get our money back, and get the real ones re graded and you just came up on thousands dollars.

There should be equal buyer/seller protection as long as you follow proper protocol.

[Southpas2013]

Originally Posted by hairyangryfella

Since you're still here missing the point, are you going to respond as to what the hell you're getting at here??
Because it's one thing to troll, it's a whole other thing calling into question my morals...

he's just not getting it

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Southpas2013

I'm ok with accepting a return, as long as the buyer does it properly.

If PSA deems either the PSA slab was fake and/or the card itself, then yes a return should be made, AS LONG AS THE CARD WAS NOT BROKEN OUT OF THE SLAB.

Because once the card is broken out, there is no way for either party to prove it is the same card.

You don't seem to be getting the point.

The fact that they allowed this to happen, we can now go ad buy every Jordan rookie (real ones), break them out, switch them for fakes, keep the real ones.

Return them all as fakes, get our money back, and get the real ones re graded and you just came up on thousands dollars.

There should be equal buyer/seller protection as long as you follow proper protocol.

Buyers are not obligated to care about PSA or the slabs. If a buyer wants to purchase your card that is slabbed by PSA and take the card out they are allowed to do so. If they find out that you sold them a counterfeit, they are allowed to send it back because you did not send them what they bought.

Breaking a counterfeit you didn't buy out of a case and being stuck with the loss is not "equal protection". That is protection for sellers selling counterfeit goods, which will never happen. It is amazing how many of you think you can sell counterfeit goods to people and not be responsible because they took the counterfeit they didn't know they bought out of a case they don't have to care about.

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Southpas2013

he's just not getting it

I get it perfectly fine. What shocking is how many of you think I don't get it because I think sellers are responsible if they sell counterfeit goods to people. That's scary.

[h00perstar34]

Don’t crack the professional graded card out of the case then cry for a refund. You alter the state of the card. Also how can you prove a card is fake if someone supposedly got one by the most reputable grading company that exists??? That’s like dinging the corner yourself and crying for a refund. What’s funny is you’re siding with the buyer and you live near him, hmmmmmmmm..........

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by h00perstar34

Don’t crack the professional graded card out of the case then cry for a refund. You alter the state of the card. Also how can you prove a card is fake if someone supposedly got one by the most reputable grading company that exists??? That’s like dinging the corner yourself and crying for a refund. What’s funny is you’re siding with the buyer and you live near him, hmmmmmmmm..........

Altered the state of the card? Lmfao. It's a counterfeit. He can cut the card in half if he wants and it wouldn't alter anything. A worthless pile of junk you sold him. You sell someone counterfeit goods they can return them. The fact you are arguing that you can sell someone a counterfeit and not be responsible is not surprising.

[h00perstar34]

How do you know it is a counterfeit when PSA doesn’t? lol apparently PSA considers it real but you don’t and you are an all knowing professional grader? LMAO!!!!

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by h00perstar34

How do you know it is a counterfeit when PSA doesn’t? lol

Judging by the comments so far, PSA didn't grade it. It's a counterfeit slab with a counterfeit card. But that really doesn't matter. PSA might protect you if you own the card. The second you sell something as authentic regardless of what third party verifies it, you are responsible for the authenticity of the contents. If a buyer finds out you sold them a counterfeit good they can return it. They'll win the case every single time because in the real world you can't sell counterfeit goods to people and not be responsible. Only in the blowout world does that exist, lmao.

[Southpas2013]

Originally Posted by pgisback

I get it perfectly fine. What shocking is how many of you think I don't get it because I think sellers are responsible if they sell counterfeit goods to people. That's scary.

We’re not saying they are responsible. If they sell a counterfeit as fake , they ARE responsible.

The card should actually be confiscated by PSA and a refund be made.

However, in order to prove all of this, the card must be intact in the PSA encasing and sent to them for verification.

If you take a card out of the case , and I garauntee , it will not hold up in court because there is no way to prove it is the same card.
If you are really concerned it is fake , leave it slabbed and send it in. Then if the result is a fake you get your refund, seller is responsible, card confiscated. If it is real you get your card and it will also be slabbed in a new label.

Both buyer and seller need a level of protection against scammers. Scammers can be on both sides , meaning as a seller or buyer.

And yes the buyer can do whatever they want with the card once they buy it, but once you alter the card you cannot return it. It is no longer in the same state or even the same card that was originally sold.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by Southpas2013

We’re not saying they are responsible. If they sell a counterfeit as fake , they ARE responsible.

The card should actually be confiscated by PSA and a refund be made.

However, in order to prove all of this, the card must be intact in the PSA encasing and sent to them for verification.

If you take a card out of the case , and I garauntee , it will not hold up in court because there is no way to prove it is the same card.
If you are really concerned it is fake , leave it slabbed and send it in. Then if the result is a fake you get your refund, seller is responsible, card confiscated. If it is real you get your card and it will also be slabbed in a new label.

Both buyer and seller need a level of protection against scammers. Scammers can be on both sides , meaning as a seller or buyer.

And yes the buyer can do whatever they want with the card once they buy it, but once you alter the card you cannot return it. It is no longer in the same state or even the same card that was originally sold.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You do not need to verify the authenticity of your item in the case it came in. If a buyer wants to take the contents out they are 100% allowed to do so and under no circumstances does that mean they are now responsible for the counterfeit they find inside. The fact you think buyers have to figure out you sold them a fake in the case and not out of the case in its raw form is ridiculous. If you sell someone a counterfeit you are responsible. There is literally no justification for selling counterfeit goods to people and not being responsible. The buyer did not receive what you claimed to be selling him.

[h00perstar34]

If the case is fake that’s a different story. Didn’t read through all these pages honestly
. I’m assuming there was no real serial number associated with PSA database for this card?

[helstad]

Originally Posted by pgisback

Altered the state of the card? Lmfao. It's a counterfeit. He can cut the card in half if he wants and it wouldn't alter anything. A worthless pile of junk you sold him. You sell someone counterfeit goods they can return them. The fact you are arguing that you can sell someone a counterfeit and not be responsible is not surprising.

I am not understanding one thing about your argument. How do you know the card the buyer is claiming to be fake is the same card that was in the slab?

Couldn't the buyer crack the slab, take the real card and return a fake he previously owned?

[pgisback]

Originally Posted by h00perstar34

If the case is fake that’s a different story. Didn’t read through all these pages honestly
. I’m assuming there was no real serial number associated with PSA database for this card?

No, it's a real serial number, but someone found the original PSA case with the serial number and it's a different label and card inside the case.