Drew Brees Card Graded BGS 9.5 Gains Almost $9,000 in Value After Trimming

[Mountaineer]

I will say this to Beckett's credit, I'm glad they offer the subgrades on the slab unlike PSA. This helps members track cards and see what subgrades got bumped and by looking at the vast majority of these recently trimmed cards, it is the "corners & edges" that always get the big bump. Comparing these numbers with the before and after's allows members to focus on certain areas and find the altered places on the cards.

As always Dan, great work and great work to anyone else involved in this case.

I foresee trimmers and those involved in these bumping scheme's and altering schemes to end up focusing on using PSA due to them not listing the subgrades and ultimately making it harder on those who try to identify these alterations.

[palmetto7]

Does it seem this happens more with bgs than psa? Is it because a 9.5 is easier to obtain than a 10? Great work as always. These grading compaines better get their act together quickly. I can also see lawsuits coming against these companies and sellers.

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[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by palmetto7

Does it seem this happens more with bgs than psa? Is it because a 9.5 is easier to obtain than a 10? Great work as always. These grading compaines better get their act together quickly. I can also see lawsuits coming against these companies and sellers.

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I think it's because BGS shows you the areas of improvement for someone who is altering cards. Better to submit to the same business that graded the card and at least gave feedback on it, which allows the more likely improvement in grade when using BGS. I know BGS 10's are more difficult to get than PSA 10's. It used to be that BGS 9.5's = PSA 10's. Either way, the subgrades help in all this to at least notice where the card was altered. And yes, both companies better figure something out or they may become a "house of cards" (no pun).

[GatorPie]

I've always had this question: If a card is professionally trimmed cleanly with a piece of machinery, how would a grader ever be able to tell? We aren't talking about guys 30 years ago hacking up the edges with scissors anymore.

This card isn't serial numbered, so it's ripe for this kind of thing. At least with serial numbered cards the grading companies should have a record of the serial number on the cards they grade that they could reference....although I doubt they even do that. Someone suggested that the serial number should go on the label (and hence into the pop report), and I think that's a great idea. Such a great idea it will never happen.

The prices on some of these cards are getting so insane that this problem is always going to exist.

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

I've always had this question: If a card is professionally trimmed cleanly with a piece of machinery, how would a grader ever be able to tell? We aren't talking about guys 30 years ago hacking up the edges with scissors anymore.

For modern, you set a strict size requirement and stick to it. No allowances. The thought is that these guys are trimming 1/64th of an inch because that is the maximum difference that is tolerated.

Would be nice to get breakersrowe to comment on this. As it has in every single prior case, the first comment will give me enough to make a judgement.

[GatorPie]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

For modern, you set a strict size requirement and stick to it. No allowances. The thought is that these guys are trimming 1/64th of an inch because that is the maximum difference that is tolerated.

Would be nice to get breakersrowe to comment on this. As it has in every single prior case, the first comment will give me enough to make a judgement.

While it get where you're coming from, isn't it a fact that some of these cards come right out of the pack under a certain tolerance? It would be quite a shame if some legit cards were pretty much labeled forever as trimmed right out of the package.

[7nohitter]

More incredible work by Dan!

[KhalDrogo]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

While it get where you're coming from, isn't it a fact that some of these cards come right out of the pack under a certain tolerance? It would be quite a shame if some legit cards were pretty much labeled forever as trimmed right out of the package.

The number of legit modern cards being subbed for grading that would be rejected with such a policy would be far fewer than the number of trimmed cards. Just my opinion.

[jushankel]

It blows my mind how someone can even attempt to trim a card of that kind of value. Greed is a helluva drug.


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[joan1173]

Absurdity.... Keep on digging, who know's what else you're going to find

[rittdk01]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

I've always had this question: If a card is professionally trimmed cleanly with a piece of machinery, how would a grader ever be able to tell? We aren't talking about guys 30 years ago hacking up the edges with scissors anymore.

This card isn't serial numbered, so it's ripe for this kind of thing. At least with serial numbered cards the grading companies should have a record of the serial number on the cards they grade that they could reference....although I doubt they even do that. Someone suggested that the serial number should go on the label (and hence into the pop report), and I think that's a great idea. Such a great idea it will never happen.

The prices on some of these cards are getting so insane that this problem is always going to exist.

Yeah anything modern is impossible to tell it’s altered if trimmed properly. The vintage stuff is much more noticeable, so we shouldn’t see 1956 mantles bumping up several grades anytime soon. I’m glad I don’t buy modern for more than $150.

[Scottish Punk]

Originally Posted by KhalDrogo

The number of legit modern cards being subbed for grading that would be rejected with such a policy would be far fewer than the number of trimmed cards. Just my opinion.

Agree, and I think with modern printing technology, I would assume the failure tolerance is much lower now. When/If computer grading ever becomes a thing. The exact measurement should be done for the card. Look it up on the website and maybe have a indicator that it is short on the back of the label. Taking that measurement while doing a computer scan seem trivial.

[jstephens24]

there are only 9 BGS 9.5 of this card...I knew of 1 that was offered to me in a trade but it has a different serial number than this one

[jstephens24]

Originally Posted by chezball

He's on twitter using the same name.

looks like no one has asked him on twitter about it so I just asked him who he sold it to

[pazerbaijan]

Originally Posted by swabie2424

How about a top notch investigative journalist with an interest in sports, pop culture and business. A big expose in a major newspaper or on TV. Imagine Bryant Gumbel on Real Sports (HBO). That would get law enforcement’s attention. And really put the grading companies on the hot seat. It’d make for a juicy story. All the elements are there. Famous athletes. Greed. Corruption. Money.

Darren Rovell would probably be the only journalist with any interest in this. He's done several stories on sports cards for ESPN, including the Dak Prescott autopen incident and the BGS 9 Brady Championship Ticket that sold for $250k last year.

He left ESPN a few months ago. He currently works for the Action Network, a sports betting news site.

https://twitter.com/darrenrovell

[NoleinJax]

Originally Posted by jushankel

It blows my mind how someone can even attempt to trim a card of that kind of value. Greed is a helluva drug.


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It's likely someone who has done this more than any of us want to think about and has the process down pat.

[Jay9Suited]

Originally Posted by GatorPie

While it get where you're coming from, isn't it a fact that some of these cards come right out of the pack under a certain tolerance? It would be quite a shame if some legit cards were pretty much labeled forever as trimmed right out of the package.

Basically what happens with these:
1993 SP Derek Jeter
1994 UD Griffey/Mantle Dual Auto
2000 Playoff Contenders Tom Brady Auto

[Thunderdunk]

Just to be clear. I think this crap is crazy awful.

But what happens when the grading companies start to reject cards that you pulled from a pack for trimming because the manufacturing company's tolerances are not perfect or uniform every time. I would be pretty peeved if that were to happen.


See post #93 with the variance in cards. 1/64 or less of a trimmed card is nothing compared to the worthless tolerances the card companies keep. Just like UD came out with the hologram, card companies need to do something to combat this. Just my thoughts.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...4&postcount=93

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...1277299&page=4

[starvela]

So, if it wasn't for worthpoint, it would be trimmers paradise!! We need to make sure worthpoint never goes down!!

[jasonm2121]

This is disgusting.

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by pazerbaijan

Darren Rovell would probably be the only journalist with any interest in this. He's done several stories on sports cards for ESPN, including the Dak Prescott autopen incident and the BGS 9 Brady Championship Ticket that sold for $250k last year.

He left ESPN a few months ago. He currently works for the Action Network, a sports betting news site.

https://twitter.com/darrenrovell

I think Rovell would be an option, as would David Seideman from Forbes, who has written extensively on the investment side of the hobby.

Rich Mueller of SCD is the best positioned of all to write this article, but he might risk destroying any relationship he has with folks at Beckett if he was too hard-hitting.

The best thing BO members can do to help spread the word is to tweet these threads at Beckett and PSA, and to spread the links to Facebook groups and other hobby message boards.

[Deadshot]

Great work as always, Dan. The one thing we haven't been able to do in any of these cases is find an outraged buyer. I think that's the key to any legal action. You have to find someone that has some skin in the game.

[Siberian13]

Originally Posted by superdan49

I think Rovell would be an option, as would David Seideman from Forbes, who has written extensively on the investment side of the hobby.

Rich Mueller of SCD is the best positioned of all to write this article, but he might risk destroying any relationship he has with folks at Beckett if he was too hard-hitting.

The best thing BO members can do to help spread the word is to tweet these threads at Beckett and PSA, and to spread the links to Facebook groups and other hobby message boards.

We need a Kardashian to spread the word. People watch/listen to them.

[superdan49]

And just to have it on record in this thread as well, here is the other breakersrowe trimmed card I found (the one that lead to the discovery of the $17,000 Brees):


2000 Upper Deck Vintage Tom Brady/JR Redmond RC 0234/1000 BGS 9.5

Sold as BGS 9.5 on eBay by seller breakersrowe for $787 on 1/23/2019.
Purchased raw on eBay by an unknown buyer on 1/19/2017 for $106.50.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ady-1850692325
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2000-UD-UPP...orig_cvip=true

[superdan49]

Originally Posted by Deadshot

Great work as always, Dan. The one thing we haven't been able to do in any of these cases is find an outraged buyer. I think that's the key to any legal action. You have to find someone that has some skin in the game.

There was an outraged buyer with one of the trimmed LeBron Topps Blacks I found back in January (he posted about it, too). However, Probstein refunded him so he was made whole.

I think to be outraged the buyer must be a collector. If the buyer is a flipper or investor, they will likely be indifferent as long as the label says Gem Mint or Pristine.