How do you figure out how much to charge for a group case break?

[iluvfish2]

We have had lots of questions about this so I figured I'd try and write something up for this

Not all products make great group break products. Typically products with lots of base cards work best for team breaks. Those with a few cards (Exquisite, Triple Threads, or National Treasures for examples) work better as "hit" breaks. A hit typically refers to a game-used card (and/or patch variaitons), autographed card, autographed game-used card, and in some instances maybe parallel card. For those that have done group breaks in the past, if a product has a few base cards, these could become a slot, but most are in favor of randomizing these at the end of the break (random.org is highly recommended).

Now how do you figure how much to charge for a slot in your break? Charge to little and you will end up paying out of pocket. Charge to much and your making to much (keep in mind group breaks should be "non profit." For example, if you've got 10 slots and 1000 bucks into the case, and 100 bucks into shipping, and 100 bucks into paypal fees, then your total costs are 1200 bucks. Given 10 slot holders, each slot would cost 120 bucks (keep in mind group breaks hosted here should not be configured for profit).

In the above example, you saw I had factored in 100 for shipping fees and 100 for paypal fees. Here is the best way to figure these in. Each product has different costs.

For example Razor Ink Archives was fairly easy for me to configure since I knew the cards were encased and only came 1 card per pack. So each slot in my group break was 1 card and I didn’t have to buy any supplies. But you may need penny sleeves (regular, or maybe extra thick). Dont' forget toploads either, and these come in various sizes. If your doing base card slots, will they be enough to fit in a lucite case, or do you maybe need storage boxes?

So what about shipping costs? I knew the weight of a comparable card (Razor Letterman) which was 3 oz when placed inside a padded mailer). Using this I could figure out what it was going to cost to ship (rates can also be found on USPS - The United States Postal Service (U.S. Postal Service). One thing to note here - a bubble mailer is considered a package and not an envelope. Prices are different for a letter and a package and You must follow the shipping guidelines (example, any package with e-delivery confirmation must be 3/4" thick or the package is upgraded to priority. Not only do you need to know what your shipping costs will be, but what are you going to ship the cards in, padded mailers, Priority rate boxes? Knowing what I've already got into my padded mailers (11 cents) and that it costs me 9 cents for my shipping labels (I have peel and stick labels that come 2 per 8x11 sheet, so I do not need packing tape to tape this to my padded mailers. It also costs 19 cents to use paypal's e-delivery confirmation. Keep in mind any break you host should have delivery confirmation. This is typically a cheap way of verifying that those within your group break have received their cards. You may also want to factor in insurance, nothing worse that someone getting their cards damaged. You as the host are responsible for the cards until they are safely received. If not, if a slot holder files a claim against you via paypal, you will loose. Another reason to make sure you know who is in your group break. Now one advantage to using the e-delivery confirmation is that its 19 cents. If you go to the post office, this will cost you about 80 cents, you so just raised your slot price 60 cents.

Once you have your entire costs figured in (product costs, mailing supplies, and/or any card supplies), you need to factor in your paypal fees (currently .30 transaction fee and 2.9% ). Example: If someone paypal's you 10 bucks, paypal will take 0.59 of that transaction (0.30 fee and .29 as the percentage). This is why its figured last. If you figure this to early, you will lose money.

If you use a spreadsheet it makes this much easier not only configuring the pricing, but also to keep track of all the slot holders information as it maybe a few weeks between ordering, receiving the case, breaking it, and shipping everything off so tracking down peoples addresses can be fun.

I also would recommend using video equipment and recording the break. Weither its a high or low case break, if you get shorted a card or forget the configuration of a pack, this helps. Also helps avoid anyone questioning the integrity of the breaker when the case is to blame and not the host. Another benefit, blowout will typically offer discounts for video box/case breaks if you follow their rules for obtaining the discount. Even more savings for the slot holders!

Additional things to consider:
If someone wants to pay via a check, why not cut them a break on their slot price since your not taking in the paypal fees.
What if someone buys more than one slot? This is very common. But seldom are slot prices adjusted for multiple slots. Your shipping costs are greatly reduced (typically the 1st ounce of a package is the most expensive (currently 1.22), but additional ounces are only 0.17. So if someone buys 2 slots, if your are figuring on a 1 oz package, instead of charging the slot holder 2.44, why not figure on charging them 1.39? This saves the slot holder 1.05 plus since they made one payment you to, you saved 0.30 in the paypal fees, but if they’re buying more than 2 slots (or your packages are heavier) this difference is even greater!

[iluvfish2]

Guys..let me know if I missed anything and I'll edit this as needed. Once we can get a final copy together, I'll make a new post and sticky it. As time allows, I'll probably try and embed some links into this.

[u_want_my_cards]

thanks fish, this really helps!

[brett06]

Originally Posted by iluvfish2

We have had lots of questions about this so I figured I'd try and write something up for this

Not all products make great group break products. Typically products with lots of base cards work best for team breaks. Those with a few cards (Exquisite, Triple Threads, or National Treasures for examples) work better as "hit" breaks. A hit typically refers to a game-used card (and/or patch variaitons), autographed card, autographed game-used card, and in some instances maybe parallel card. For those that have done group breaks in the past, if a product has a few base cards, these could become a slot, but most are in favor of randomizing these at the end of the break (random.org is highly recommended).

Now how do you figure how much to charge for a slot in your break? Charge to little and you will end up paying out of pocket. Charge to much and your making to much (keep in mind group breaks should be "non profit." For example, if you've got 10 slots and 1000 bucks into the case, and 100 bucks into shipping, and 100 bucks into paypal fees, then your total costs are 1200 bucks. Given 10 slot holders, each slot would cost 120 bucks (keep in mind group breaks hosted here should not be configured for profit).

In the above example, you saw I had factored in 100 for shipping fees and 100 for paypal fees. Here is the best way to figure these in. Each product has different costs.

For example Razor Ink Archives was fairly easy for me to configure since I knew the cards were encased and only came 1 card per pack. So each slot in my group break was 1 card and I didn’t have to buy any supplies. But you may need penny sleeves (regular, or maybe extra thick). Dont' forget toploads either, and these come in various sizes. If your doing base card slots, will they be enough to fit in a lucite case, or do you maybe need storage boxes?

So what about shipping costs? I knew the weight of a comparable card (Razor Letterman) which was 3 oz when placed inside a padded mailer). Using this I could figure out what it was going to cost to ship (rates can also be found on USPS - The United States Postal Service (U.S. Postal Service). One thing to note here - a bubble mailer is considered a package and not an envelope. Prices are different for a letter and a package and You must follow the shipping guidelines (example, any package with e-delivery confirmation must be 3/4" thick or the package is upgraded to priority. Not only do you need to know what your shipping costs will be, but what are you going to ship the cards in, padded mailers, Priority rate boxes? Knowing what I've already got into my padded mailers (11 cents) and that it costs me 9 cents for my shipping labels (I have peel and stick labels that come 2 per 8x11 sheet, so I do not need packing tape to tape this to my padded mailers. It also costs 19 cents to use paypal's e-delivery confirmation. Keep in mind any break you host should have delivery confirmation. This is typically a cheap way of verifying that those within your group break have received their cards. You may also want to factor in insurance, nothing worse that someone getting their cards damaged. You as the host are responsible for the cards until they are safely received. If not, if a slot holder files a claim against you via paypal, you will loose. Another reason to make sure you know who is in your group break. Now one advantage to using the e-delivery confirmation is that its 19 cents. If you go to the post office, this will cost you about 80 cents, you so just raised your slot price 60 cents.

Once you have your entire costs figured in (product costs, mailing supplies, and/or any card supplies), you need to factor in your paypal fees (currently 2.9% and .30). Example: If someone paypal's you 10 bucks, paypay will take 0.59 of that transaction (0.29 and .30). This is why its figured last. If you figure this to early, you will lose money.

If you use a spreadsheet it makes this much easier not only configuring the pricing, but also to keep track of all the slot holders information as it maybe a few weeks between ordering, receiving the case, breaking it, and shipping everything off so tracking down peoples addresses can be fun.

I also would recommend using video equipment and recording the break. Weither its a high or low case break, if you get shorted a card or forget the configuration of a pack, this helps. Also helps avoid anyone questioning the integrity of the breaker when the case is to blame and not the host. Another benefit, blowout will typically offer discounts for video box/case breaks if you follow their rules for obtaining the discount. Even more savings for the slot holders!

Additional things to consider:
If someone wants to pay via a check, why not cut them a break on their slot price since your not taking in the paypal fees.
What if someone buys more than one slot? This is very common. But seldom are slot prices adjusted for multiple slots. Your shipping costs are greatly reduced (typically the 1st ounce of a package is the most expensive (currently 1.22), but additional ounces are only 0.17. So if someone buys 2 slots, if your are figuring on a 1 oz package, instead of charging the slot holder 2.44, why not figure on charging them 1.39? This saves the slot holder 1.05 plus since they made one payment you to, you saved 0.30 in the paypal fees, but if they’re buying more than 2 slots (or your packages are heavier) this difference is even greater!

That is why I leave it up to the fellas on here. Really alot of work. I've made plenty of deals on here and probably have the trust of some of the members I have dealt with but wow. Easier to just join it Thanks to all who have dedicated their hard work into doing these and the ones who will be hosting more.

[iluvfish2]

Humm...so maybe I should add prepare to dedacate many hours prior to the break, 2-4 hours for the break, and 4-6 hours afterwards to ship??? They are fun and can really save your butt when you need a wax addiction, but thats why you dont see me doing 1 a week or even month...to much effort!

[ND3]

Fish, think you got it all.

BTW Packing and shipping is the biggest ball buster of doing a break. Also sorting if you are doing a lower to mid-range product with lots of base.

[iluvfish2]

I've gotten a few PM's as well, so I'll do some futher explanations o things and maybe title it group break hosting 101

[hockeyjunkie99]

Yes, packaging and shipping takes a long time. As well as total break time. I discount slots if more than 1 is taken at $2 less per slot.

Also, the higher the slot cost the more paypal takes out at their 2.9% + .30

[pskell02]

That writeup looks pretty spot on Rob. I would like to add that if you are doing a lot of shipping that you should try and buy everything in bulk (bubble mailers, toploaders, soft sleeves, etc) as this will save you and the participants money. It would also greatly benefit you to get a label printer as it simplifies printing and sticking the labels to the packages and is much cheaper. I have gotten it so that mailers cost me about $.08 each and each label is $.03-.04 with a max total of about $.12 per package.

I use ValueMailers (their website and ebay store). Check both as the price is always better on one or the other, it fluctuates fairly frequently. #000 (when I buy 500+) runs me about $.07-.08 each.

ValueMailers.com, Discount shipping supplies, bubble mailers,poly mailers, poly mailer, Courier mailer plastic bags, Mailer, bubblewrap, bubble mailers, shipping and packaging, packing materials, packaging

If you have a label printer, I have found that Doberman Labels is cheapest. They have a great selection of labels to fit pretty much any printer.

Dobermanlabel compatible label products for Brother QL-500, QL-550, and QL-650

Also, make sure you keep the peanuts from the cases as they are free packing material to fill boxes or make bubble mailers 3/4".


Edit: One last thing. Make sure you get the case locked in as soon as possible after receiving the price quote to prevent the price from going up. My Prime Cuts break was a perfect example. We locked in at just over $2k per case and before I got all payments in, the price had ballooned to over $3k. That would have been a huge price increase for slot holders had it not been reserved when it was.

[qbstud10]

Maybe something that should be thought of is: How long before someone can host a group break? Maybe like setting some minimum requirements/standards of being a group break host (length of time as a member, feedback on ebay and iTrader, etc.) I am sure there are members on here that would like to try to start hosting these, but don't when it would appropriate to try.

Other than that, this was very informative and helpful fish. I appreciate you taking the time to try to explain just how much it takes to run a successful group break.

[papajim]

This is why the only thing I have to do with breaks is: I'll take 2 slots, when do you need the payment

For those that want to do a GB but have never done it, please read this 5-6 times and think really hard about it

Thanks again to all the BREAKERS

[iluvfish2]

Originally Posted by qbstud10

Maybe something that should be thought of is: How long before someone can host a group break? Maybe like setting some minimum requirements/standards of being a group break host (length of time as a member, feedback on ebay and iTrader, etc.) I am sure there are members on here that would like to try to start hosting these, but don't when it would appropriate to try.

Other than that, this was very informative and helpful fish. I appreciate you taking the time to try to explain just how much it takes to run a successful group break.

This has nothing to do who can host a break, nor if you notice, I never even mentioned how old you need to be to do a break. Maybe we can make that Group Breaks 201...are you ready? There are lots of guys that may want to try and host one, but in all honesty this post once edited could be a major resource not only on the forums, but for the web. Its a ton of fun, and would be way more fun if I tried not to keep the boxes at 10 min (so I can easilly transfer the files to youtube now that I use ustream).

To many guys really dont konw how to run one, and the learning curve is steep. Ask anyone thats ever hosted one. I've done quite a few, but once you start getting into multiple cases (NT, Ink Archives, Triple Threads), team/base slots (06 DP&P) your in for work! Flip side, before I join any break I'd do the math myself. If your over what I estimate the break to be by 25-50 bucks I wont join. I also suspect others do this as well.

There is a ton of knowledge on this forum (and others) but very little is shared (for multiple reasons). I think the more detailed this post becomes, the better it is!

[qbstud10]

Originally Posted by iluvfish2

This has nothing to do who can host a break, nor if you notice, I never even mentioned how old you need to be to do a break. Maybe we can make that Group Breaks 201...are you ready? There are lots of guys that may want to try and host one, but in all honesty this post once edited could be a major resource not only on the forums, but for the web. Its a ton of fun, and would be way more fun if I tried not to keep the boxes at 10 min (so I can easilly transfer the files to youtube now that I use ustream).

To many guys really dont konw how to run one, and the learning curve is steep. Ask anyone thats ever hosted one. I've done quite a few, but once you start getting into multiple cases (NT, Ink Archives, Triple Threads), team/base slots (06 DP&P) your in for work! Flip side, before I join any break I'd do the math myself. If your over what I estimate the break to be by 25-50 bucks I wont join. I also suspect others do this as well.

There is a ton of knowledge on this forum (and others) but very little is shared (for multiple reasons). I think the more detailed this post becomes, the better it is!

Nor do I mention anything about how old you need to be???? I said how much time as a member and feedback...I don't really know where you got anything about age from? I thought it would be helpful to line this out since you are creating a Group Break 101. I understand that they take a lot of work.

I was saying this because I noticed that a member tried to start one recently, and was told that he needed to build up trust and feedback before he should try to do one.

[pskell02]

Originally Posted by qbstud10

Nor do I mention anything about how old you need to be???? I said how much time as a member and feedback...I don't really know where you got anything about age from? I thought it would be helpful to line this out since you are creating a Group Break 101. I understand that they take a lot of work.

I was saying this because I noticed that a member tried to start one recently, and was told that he needed to build up trust and feedback before he should try to do one.

There is no real set time frame or amount of transactions. Its more of a feeling out process with the specific member. If you notice, most of the GB's that get posted get approved now, no matter who the member is. It is up to the board members to decide if they trust that person to run a break. The only real age requirement is that the person be over the age of 18 so they are legally liable to enter into a financial contract.

[bigboysoffootball]

Thanks for the thread. Someday I might do a group break. So this tread will help me.

[iluvfish2]

THe age is a blowout requirement, there is no requirement for how long someone has been on the forums to host a break. You could in theory organize a group break on youtube, post it on here, assuming it passes the criteria, have those guys post on here (which then makes them members) and complete the break. As a mod, I'm looking to make sure the break doesnt already have one running, and that the background info I have (ebay feedback or other sites) is legit and the host does have some type of selling feedback that is pretty clean. If the rules are followed and the criteria has been met, then its not really up to me as to weither or not the group break is allowed, you've met the stated criteria. Its then up to the forums members as to weither or not they want to spend/risk their money on the break.

The age thing on blowout is based strickly on the defination of who is considered an adult in the court of law. Reason being, if someone hosts a 3 case break of Exquisite, you could be looking at 9000 bucks, probably closer to 10000 when you figure paypal, shipping, insurance, etc. If someone takes that money and runs, the members need to be able to take recourse. Blowout is not responble for trades gone wrong (although they can and have in the past taken action such as banning, etc), but being sued is part of it. This is the reason behind it.

I know other guys wont join in new member breaks, and I'm just the same. I personally hate rules and really think for the most part this is a pretty "Free" forum. There are no trade requirements, nor do I want to see them. I for one HATE SCF's trade requirements. While it does have some merit, it should have some exceptions. They wont accept blowouts itrader as they feel it can be abused. But I work to hard for my money to be tied up for months, especially since I tend to rip and flip (although at a snails pace), so tying money up in or loosing it on what could be a questionable break, I'll pass. The member could be totally legit, but group breaks are free will.

[qbstud10]

Originally Posted by iluvfish2

THe age is a blowout requirement, there is no requirement for how long someone has been on the forums to host a break. You could in theory organize a group break on youtube, post it on here, assuming it passes the criteria, have those guys post on here (which then makes them members) and complete the break. As a mod, I'm looking to make sure the break doesnt already have one running, and that the background info I have (ebay feedback or other sites) is legit and the host does have some type of selling feedback that is pretty clean. If the rules are followed and the criteria has been met, then its not really up to me as to weither or not the group break is allowed, you've met the stated criteria. Its then up to the forums members as to weither or not they want to spend/risk their money on the break.

The age thing on blowout is based strickly on the defination of who is considered an adult in the court of law. Reason being, if someone hosts a 3 case break of Exquisite, you could be looking at 9000 bucks, probably closer to 10000 when you figure paypal, shipping, insurance, etc. If someone takes that money and runs, the members need to be able to take recourse. Blowout is not responble for trades gone wrong (although they can and have in the past taken action such as banning, etc), but being sued is part of it. This is the reason behind it.

I know other guys wont join in new member breaks, and I'm just the same. I personally hate rules and really think for the most part this is a pretty "Free" forum. There are no trade requirements, nor do I want to see them. I for one HATE SCF's trade requirements. While it does have some merit, it should have some exceptions. They wont accept blowouts itrader as they feel it can be abused. But I work to hard for my money to be tied up for months, especially since I tend to rip and flip (although at a snails pace), so tying money up in or loosing it on what could be a questionable break, I'll pass. The member could be totally legit, but group breaks are free will.

Ok, thanks for taking the time to explain that fish...Sorry if I took the thread off of the original path, but was hoping to host a break in the future and wanted to get a feel for when I should try.

[jjj7880]

Another good idea to save some money is to do the paypal trick to bypass the fee's. All you have to do is click "send money" type in the paypal address and at the bottom click personal and then payment owed or other and the person receiving the money will not get a fee nor will the person sending the money. However if you pay with credit card the person sending the money will incur a fee. There are no fee's what-so-ever if you pay by paypal balance or your checking account. This process should only be done with people you TRUST. You as the buyer are not covered for paypal chargebacks, etc. If you are buying cards or something from someone you trust then this works great. Also there will be no address given by paypal so the person sending the money will need to send the "breaker" or "seller" your address.

[studioU]

Originally Posted by jjj7880

Another good idea to save some money is to do the paypal trick to bypass the fee's. All you have to do is click "send money" type in the paypal address and at the bottom click personal and then payment owed or other and the person receiving the money will not get a fee nor will the person sending the money. However if you pay with credit card the person sending the money will incur a fee. There are no fee's what-so-ever if you pay by paypal balance or your checking account. This process should only be done with people you TRUST. You as the buyer are not covered for paypal chargebacks, etc. If you are buying cards or something from someone you trust then this works great. Also there will be no address given by paypal so the person sending the money will need to send the "breaker" or "seller" your address.

I have found this trick to work well so far. Actually, for people who get in multiple breaks I ask them to send the first time as goods so I have their address. Once you have shipped you can go to "ship another" under that transaction. Then, subsiquent payments are sent as a gift to save the fees. However, I know several people who host allot of gb and I am told PayPal will limit your "gift" payments at a certain point. Another good idea when hosting a gb is to have lists of each participant and their teams near by during the break. Depending on the product you are breaking, you can put the hit right in the winners slot. This helps you as the breaker to indentify who has won the hit.This also saves a ton of time and headache when shipping.

[admin_blowoutcards]

Originally Posted by studioU

I have found this trick to work well so far. Actually, for people who get in multiple breaks I ask them to send the first time as goods so I have their address. Once you have shipped you can go to "ship another" under that transaction. Then, subsiquent payments are sent as a gift to save the fees. However, I know several people who host allot of gb and I am told PayPal will limit your "gift" payments at a certain point. Another good idea when hosting a gb is to have lists of each participant and their teams near by during the break. Depending on the product you are breaking, you can put the hit right in the winners slot. This helps you as the breaker to indentify who has won the hit.This also saves a ton of time and headache when shipping.

This is ABSOLUTELY NOT RECOMMENDED at all!! Do not send as a gift! If you send as a gift, it is the same as sending cash. You will have no recourse and no options to file a claim if the need arises.

[jojomfd1]

I would like to be a part of a case break. If anyone is having one soon please let me know. Thanks!

[Axe]

very nice thread. i recently just joined this site, and actually just came back to the hobby, and have been thinking about running some breaks eventually, this thread will be very good help for when that comes, but until then just gonna sit back and enjoy others breaking and watch and learn, heh.

[Gold]

Since this is non profit for the person holding the break. You can send money via paypal under personal which has no fee cost to either person. Wouldn't this make sense? For instance I just sent someone $70 for a break. I had the option to choose personal. I should have paid him this way and it would have saved him on paypal fees. Curious?

[iluvfish2]

Originally Posted by Gold

Since this is non profit for the person holding the break. You can send money via paypal under personal which has no fee cost to either person. Wouldn't this make sense? For instance I just sent someone $70 for a break. I had the option to choose personal. I should have paid him this way and it would have saved him on paypal fees. Curious?

Not all are true "non profit" but we do our best to make sure the profit is minimal. While I dont want to see anyone surcharged for using paypal, I know for myself I will discount the slots if your pay via a gift (as I also discount for additional slots since your really only adding additional weight to the original package. As you stated if there aer no fees, why not lower the slot price.

[iluvfish2]

Just in case anyone needs it and/or paypal updates their rates. I've found this to be lots of help (FYI I also love Ryans Ebay Fee Calculator)!

PayPal Fee Calculator by Ryan Olbe