2009 Jason Kidd Exquisite Logoman tag patch auto - real or patch swapped?

[flippinhoops]

Hey guys, a buddy of mine just purchased this Jason Kidd, but someone messaged him saying the patch may have been swapped. He reached out to a couple other buddies that think it's legit. Anyone have any ideas if these are real or swapped?

Here's some examples of some McGrady and Mark Price Tags

[GOATMJ]

It is fake.

[flippinhoops]

Originally Posted by GOATMJ

It is fake.

How do you know for certain? Idk much about patches and autos so I'm curious

[zworykin]

An /50 card having any sort of logoman patch is... highly unlikely.

[oakhurstcards]

Originally Posted by zworykin

An /50 card having any sort of logoman patch is... highly unlikely.

Wrong. There was a point where even regular jersey cards could have logos (or whatever else would be otherwise considered the best patch available). It wasn't until around the time this card was made that "patch" and "jersey" were always produced as separate sets or parallels.

I don't know anything about this particular card but would lean real for several reasons--some of which are noted above, albeit on a cursory level.

[hairyangryfella]

Originally Posted by oakhurstcards

Wrong. There was a point where even regular jersey cards could have logos (or whatever else would be otherwise considered the best patch available). It wasn't until around the time this card was made that "patch" and "jersey" were always produced as separate sets or parallels.

I don't know anything about this particular card but would lean real for several reasons--some of which are noted above, albeit on a cursory level.

How long have you been around exactly, seeing as you're so authoritative in your reply...?

Almost all jersey cards were only jersey pieces, so to ever find a patch or tag in one is highly unusual/suspicious. When people figured out they could make more money by replacing the piece this hobby began its downward spiral.

This is a specific patch set, so it's not so unusual - however the tag looks kinda weird and not like it's from a regular jersey with that outline/background.

[Archangel1775]

Originally Posted by zworykin

An /50 card having any sort of logoman patch is... highly unlikely.

I opened a box of 2006 SP Authentic and one of the RPA's had some type of logo patch that was the center of a basketball. That card was numbered to /299.

[bonerang]

Originally Posted by hairyangryfella

When people figured out they could make more money by replacing the piece this hobby began its downward spiral.

Ah yes, a problem that affects practically no one marked the beginning of the end for sports card collecting.

[drobfan8]

Originally Posted by flippinhoops

How do you know for certain? Idk much about patches and autos so I'm curious

100% fake.

This set did not have these tags in it. Not once, not ever.

Originally Posted by oakhurstcards

Wrong. There was a point where even regular jersey cards could have logos (or whatever else would be otherwise considered the best patch available). It wasn't until around the time this card was made that "patch" and "jersey" were always produced as separate sets or parallels.

I don't know anything about this particular card but would lean real for several reasons--some of which are noted above, albeit on a cursory level.

Wrong.

This set was a patch set. Not a Jersey set. Although it did have some pretty terrible patches in it and other "piping" type patches.

I've searched Exquisite every day since about 2004. There are multiple Kidd cards that have had weak patches swapped out for these tags.

Upper Deck had plenty of tag sets and were named that. They did not put tags in these Patch sets.

[Deadshot]

They put plenty of tags in 2008 and 2009 Exquisite patch sets when they were liquidating relics. Those two years were loaded in general.

Here's a Baron Davis that also features part of a laundry tag:
https://www.priceguide.cards/card-de...ron-davis-p-bd

Here's a Dr. J:
https://www.comc.com/Players/Basketb...atches,oo,i100

[hairyangryfella]

Originally Posted by bonerang

Ah yes, a problem that affects practically no one marked the beginning of the end for sports card collecting.

It affects a lot of people, they just might not know it yet...

And yes, that's when the HOBBY part started going out the window and people became more focused on the MONEY they could make. And here we now are...

[oakhurstcards]

Originally Posted by hairyangryfella

How long have you been around exactly, seeing as you're so authoritative in your reply...?

Almost all jersey cards were only jersey pieces, so to ever find a patch or tag in one is highly unusual/suspicious. When people figured out they could make more money by replacing the piece this hobby began its downward spiral.

This is a specific patch set, so it's not so unusual - however the tag looks kinda weird and not like it's from a regular jersey with that outline/background.

1996. If I had the energy I could write a thesis length replay on my opinion and why--with the caveat being that I didn't research this exact card.

One thing though, that cut out where the material is, is not what patch fakers went for. Way too fragile.

[oakhurstcards]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

100% fake.

This set did not have these tags in it. Not once, not ever.



Wrong.

This set was a patch set. Not a Jersey set. Although it did have some pretty terrible patches in it and other "piping" type patches.

I've searched Exquisite every day since about 2004. There are multiple Kidd cards that have had weak patches swapped out for these tags.

Upper Deck had plenty of tag sets and were named that. They did not put tags in these Patch sets.

Fine. I am happy to admit I am wrong. My point was that a nice patch from these years, based on numbering, does not inherently mean it is fake. If you know this set well, I would trust you before me. But it should also mean that you know very nice patches until around this time period, were labeled only as "jerseys." /50 in 2022 means jersey. In 2009 that wasn't nearly as consequential.

[oakhurstcards]

Originally Posted by drobfan8

100% fake.

This set did not have these tags in it. Not once, not ever.



Wrong.

This set was a patch set. Not a Jersey set. Although it did have some pretty terrible patches in it and other "piping" type patches.

I've searched Exquisite every day since about 2004. There are multiple Kidd cards that have had weak patches swapped out for these tags.

Upper Deck had plenty of tag sets and were named that. They did not put tags in these Patch sets.

Also, see other reply above mine re: "lots of laundry tags"

[hairyangryfella]

Originally Posted by oakhurstcards

One thing though, that cut out where the material is, is not what patch fakers went for. Way too fragile.

Not true. The material is just stuck in there. Tweezers and a new piece with glue on it could probably be inserted without too much difficulty. Or they could have sliced the card in half and glued it back together. I've seen both.

[oakhurstcards]

Originally Posted by hairyangryfella

Not true. The material is just stuck in there. Tweezers and a new piece with glue on it could probably be inserted without too much difficulty. Or they could have sliced the card in half and glued it back together. I've seen both.

I understand. But, incompetent as BGS may be, it's still graded. All of that work makes getting holdered tougher. It is one thing to accomplish the above and another to do it, sub, and get holdered. We will likely never know. Without really good evidence otherwise, imo, this is a coinflip as to whether its switched or not. The thin tag would be an argument for fake, easier to slide in...

Also, check the date of the cert #. Until a few years ago, most any fake patch makers wouldn't bother with Jason Kidd; especially if the end result was something as (relatively) basic as a small tag.

Occam's Razor says the card is legit, imo. But no one can say with certainty. Well, sneakerbois like "GOATMJ" can...bc they buy Panini, bruh.

[Nomad]

I say we just give it to him. It looks great. I'd rather have a talented faker's patch than a panini non-anything. If it was the beginning of the end of collecting, then at least we have a moment in history.

[hermanotarjeta]

I would lean towards fake with this one.

Contrary to what was mentioned above, they did use tag material in some of the cards in this subset.

One thing that was unique about this set was that the orientation of the patches were purposely made vertically, so that horizontal lying logoman piece is the most obvious warning sign.

Also, that piece doesn't appear to go with the same design theme as other copies of that Kidd card.

Then again, I only opened 40 cases of this product, what would I know.

Maybe those attyball guys could tell you better.

And remember, the grading companies NEVER attempted to grade the authenticity of the game used material in any card, they simple stuck with condition.

[hychang5]

Upper Deck most definitely did use logoman tags in 2009-10 Exquisite. I pulled one myself out of a box and was accused of being a faker. Upper Deck caused a little mayhem that year. I can’t say for certain if this particular card had the swatch swapped, but it’s not impossible to be a legit card.

[Mattsurewood]

2009-10 was the final LICENSED exquisite release, UD was losing the license, and they pulled out all the stops. Can’t speak to the provenance of that Kidd, but there were several incredible patches/tags that year.

I saw some wild stuff from it at the 2012 National in Baltimore, a guy from NC I met had a Jordan/Tiger Woods Dual patch auto numbered to 3, some incredible stuff in that year.

[Wings]

I definitely saw tags in random 2009-10 Exquisite high numbered patches. I can't speak to this card but they were out there.

[Countmein13]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

I would lean towards fake with this one.

Contrary to what was mentioned above, they did use tag material in some of the cards in this subset.

One thing that was unique about this set was that the orientation of the patches were purposely made vertically, so that horizontal lying logoman piece is the most obvious warning sign.

Also, that piece doesn't appear to go with the same design theme as other copies of that Kidd card.

Then again, I only opened 40 cases of this product, what would I know.

Maybe those attyball guys could tell you better.

And remember, the grading companies NEVER attempted to grade the authenticity of the game used material in any card, they simple stuck with condition.

Hello, I am the owner of the Kidd Logoman card. Here is my My consensus :

Upon posting this card I had someone reach out asking if the patch was swapped. I did some digging and asking around. I found that Upper Deck did an inventory dump in 2008 and 2009 exquisite, which were issued almost one right after another. They went nuts and used up all their game used stuff since it was their last basketball product after they lost license to Panini. I also feel that year of exquisite would be much harder to swap patches as the patch window is very intricate.

And as incompetent as BGS may be it is still graded. All of that work makes getting a holder tougher. It is one thing to either use tweasers to swap patch and or cut card in half to re swap a patch then glue it back together. But is another thing to then actually do it, sub, and get it holdered. Some also say that a logo man tag would never be issued in a set /50 - only super low numbered set would contain logo tags and other great patch material. However, in the Early 2000’s up until UD lost license they put tags and logomen in not so low numbered products. It’s wasn’t until Panini took over did u only see them in low numbered stuff. A friend ndicated to me that he “owns a Phillies logo patch auto of Mike Schmidt from SP game used edition patch edition from 2004. I am sure most people would think it fake as it is /50, but I saw it pulled out of a box in front of me and bought it on the spot. Sometimes they did issue incredible patches in higher numbered cards.” Especially when it comes to exquisite 08 and 09 in my opinion.

But Perhaps the most compelling argument would be that the BGS serial number shows that it was graded before the recent price hike when the card was worth close to nothing. If guys were to fake patches, they would pick MJ or LeBron back then. It was also said that it was odd to have the logo man horizontal as all other tags were laid vertically in this set. However it would make more sense to lay the logoman tag horizontal as the patch window is longer horizontally than it is vertically in this set which would enable the card to show more of the logo. Lastly, some seem to think that this set mainly featured napkin patch or very weak patches and that it was an oddity to land a tag or other outstanding type patches. I have featured several examples (pictures) of other tags from this same set in my post to prove otherwise. Regarding the themes consistency (assuming you’re referring to the consistency of patches for Kidd) of the card how do u expect the logoman tag to be consistent with others? It is the TAG after all.


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[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Countmein13

Hello, I am the owner of the Kidd Logoman card. Here is my My consensus :

Upon posting this card I had someone reach out asking if the patch was swapped. I did some digging and asking around. I found that Upper Deck did an inventory dump in 2008 and 2009 exquisite, which were issued almost one right after another. They went nuts and used up all their game used stuff since it was their last basketball product after they lost license to Panini. I also feel that year of exquisite would be much harder to swap patches as the patch window is very intricate.

And as incompetent as BGS may be it is still graded. All of that work makes getting a holder tougher. It is one thing to either use tweasers to swap patch and or cut card in half to re swap a patch then glue it back together. But is another thing to then actually do it, sub, and get it holdered. Some also say that a logo man tag would never be issued in a set /50 - only super low numbered set would contain logo tags and other great patch material. However, in the Early 2000’s up until UD lost license they put tags and logomen in not so low numbered products. It’s wasn’t until Panini took over did u only see them in low numbered stuff. A friend ndicated to me that he “owns a Phillies logo patch auto of Mike Schmidt from SP game used edition patch edition from 2004. I am sure most people would think it fake as it is /50, but I saw it pulled out of a box in front of me and bought it on the spot. Sometimes they did issue incredible patches in higher numbered cards.” Especially when it comes to exquisite 08 and 09 in my opinion.

But Perhaps the most compelling argument would be that the BGS serial number shows that it was graded before the recent price hike when the card was worth close to nothing. If guys were to fake patches, they would pick MJ or LeBron back then. It was also said that it was odd to have the logo man horizontal as all other tags were laid vertically in this set. However it would make more sense to lay the logoman tag horizontal as the patch window is longer horizontally than it is vertically in this set which would enable the card to show more of the logo. Lastly, some seem to think that this set mainly featured napkin patch or very weak patches and that it was an oddity to land a tag or other outstanding type patches. I have featured several examples (pictures) of other tags from this same set in my post to prove otherwise. Regarding the themes consistency (assuming you’re referring to the consistency of patches for Kidd) of the card how do u expect the logoman tag to be consistent with others? It is the TAG after all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Again, as the new owner, it is your burden of proof to convince the next buyer that the patch piece is legitimate, and without greater provenance, it may be a tougher sell for a premium.

Patch swapping was rampant in exquisite, especially starting in 2007-08, the Durant rookie year.

I’ve opened 40 cases of this product and I am familiar with the types of material placed in this particular subset. I myself have pulled some outstanding team logo patches and portions of tags as well.

In my opinion, the piece doesn’t quite fit with what I have seen going into these cards, the auto patch/50.

I am quite aware of the amazing pieces that were put into this set - that’s why I bought so much of it.

Unfortunately, without more proof, I would understand how a future buyer would be skeptical.

I would like to emphasize that the fact that it is graded means absolutely NOTHING in regards to the authenticity of the patch.

And it is absolutely false that patch swappers would only target the bigger names - swapping less high profile stars brings less scrutiny and bigger percentage premiums with less risk - they are perfect targets.

[hermanotarjeta]

Furthermore, nice pieces like that in this particular set are usually a smaller part of the entire laundry tag, it would benefit you if you would be able to find pieces of the adjacent portions of that whole tag, ie the other pieces of the puzzle. No laundry tag is one inch by one inch, you can try to show the existence of other Kidd cards in this set with laundry tag lettering - it would help your case. There are likely at least five other laundry tag pieces adjacent to this one if it is legitimate.

It would be fantastic to be able to use tweezers and lift that logoman piece out to find what is hiding behind it - many patch swappers simply lay cool patches on top of single colored patches and had them slabbed by Beckett to make it look authentic.

And obviously a video showing that pulled would be the ultimate proof. Even a box break on a message board could help. I can tell you one thing, a premium patch piece like that would be one of the better hits out of the box, I wouldn’t expect this card to be pulled from the case hit box - but it’s a perfect hit for a veteran heavy box in that exquisite 3 box case or an understandable value added bonus to a Johnny Flynn premium rookie pack. Upper deck definitely put a premium on unique patch pieces when packing the product out and value-balanced each pack accordingly.

[Deadshot]

Originally Posted by Countmein13

If guys were to fake patches, they would pick MJ or LeBron back then.

I don't want to quote your whole post and discredit it for one statement, but it needs to be made clear that this portion is a generalization that's not entirely true (I see someone else addressed it here as well).

We've seen swapped patches for all caliber of players.