The Rise of a New Elite Shortstop Class?

[eye4talent]

We saw the Bobby Witt Jr. breakout last year. And now, we appear to be witnessing similar rises to stardom by at least three other young shortstops: Elly De La Cruz, Gunnar Henderson, and CJ Abrams.

It’s possible that Oneil Cruz will get there, too, but his bat has been up and down thus far in 2024. Plus, he’s older. Anthony Volpe and Ezequiel Tovar are also proving to be more impactful this year. While they might not be superstar level, that could earn some future all-star nods. (And, of course, one of them is a Yankee.)

So, are we witnessing the rise of a new class of elite shortstops? Are Witt, EDLC, Gunnar, and CJ all for real? Which ones stand out to you? Do you believe in one or some more than others?


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[Imnottheonly]

I do think there is a significant gap between Witt/Gunnar/Elly and CJ personally. Currently seems like CJ is getting that post hype rise but I personally don’t think he’s got the same power potential and playing for the Nats isn’t going to help. I see him as a multi time all star but the other three have legit MVP ceilings.

Of the three I’d say:

Highest Floor- Gunnar
Lowest Floor- Elly
Highest Ceiling- Elly
Lowest Ceiling- tough but I’m probably going Gunnar here.
Best team situation- Gunnar (being in the playoffs consistently matters)
First to win an MVP- Witt (AL central is winnable this year and if KC manages that his narrative combined with his numbers would be enough I think)

I agree that assuming these guys all stick at short that this is going to be a fun debate for the next decade about who is the best.

Honestly the fact that Gunnar’s first bowman auto in a PSA10 is like $400 cheaper than Witt or $200 cheaper than Elly is wild to me. Considering he is coming of a ROY season and was in preseason conversations as a possible MVP candidate the fact that he’s not commanding the same type of prices as at least Elly is crazy, maybe he’s not going to be a hobby darling?

[hermanotarjeta]

I don’t believe we are.

Larkin, Jeter, Nomar, and Arod set a pretty high standard for the term elite.

If EDLC can stick with it for another 8-10 years, he would be the most special. But people like Elly don’t come around too often. It’s likely he won’t sustain for that time, a decade is a long time.

The orioles are too loaded with potential hobby stars for Gunnar to stand out.

Witt will live in Jrods shadow from the hobby standpoint.

CJ Abrams has too many other film projects coming up to focus on baseball.

[oldgoldy97]

Barry over Cal?

[ThoseBackPages]

i think gunner's "issue" is that he is part of a machine-like team in Baltimore.
they are all so "good" that they just blend together. Which is cool if your are an O's fan, but not so much if you are just a fan of collecting. i think Holliday could face the same issue if he "makes it"

Witt IS the Royals, Elly IS the Reds

These things matter when it comes to the hobby.

is it the end all? of course not, but i do believe it matters

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by oldgoldy97

Barry over Cal?

Cal was the previous generation, otherwise I would have included him.

[Bcr]

Still too early in all their careers to tell, but there's a lot of promise.

[Imnottheonly]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

i think gunner's "issue" is that he is part of a machine-like team in Baltimore.
they are all so "good" that they just blend together. Which is cool if your are an O's fan, but not so much if you are just a fan of collecting. i think Holliday could face the same issue if he "makes it"

Witt IS the Royals, Elly IS the Reds

These things matter when it comes to the hobby.

is it the end all? of course not, but i do believe it matters

I don’t know if the argument that the Orioles are all so “good” holds, there are levels right? Look at the Braves you have beyond Acuna what 3 additional consistent all star type players but Acuna is still the guy. If Gunnar isn’t a level above sure but if he’s the MVP level player amongst all-star level players wouldn’t he stand out?

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by Imnottheonly

I don’t know if the argument that the Orioles are all so “good” holds, there are levels right? Look at the Braves you have beyond Acuna what 3 additional consistent all star type players but Acuna is still the guy. If Gunnar isn’t a level above sure but if he’s the MVP level player amongst all-star level players wouldn’t he stand out?

no, i meant "good" as in a baseball club not hobby good.

you are absolutely correct about the Braves that IS Ronnys team.

[jhssketchcards]

What about Jeremy Pena?

Just kidding


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[Jed Clampett]

Witt is the best of the bunch with his overall skill set

[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Imnottheonly

I don’t know if the argument that the Orioles are all so “good” holds, there are levels right? Look at the Braves you have beyond Acuna what 3 additional consistent all star type players but Acuna is still the guy. If Gunnar isn’t a level above sure but if he’s the MVP level player amongst all-star level players wouldn’t he stand out?

For the orioles, Rutschman and now minor leaguer Holliday still rank above him hobby wise.

[hermanotarjeta]

These current guys are more like Lindor/tulowitzki/rodgers/correa type elite.

[eye4talent]

Originally Posted by hermanotarjeta

I don’t believe we are.

Larkin, Jeter, Nomar, and Arod set a pretty high standard for the term elite.

If EDLC can stick with it for another 8-10 years, he would be the most special. But people like Elly don’t come around too often. It’s likely he won’t sustain for that time, a decade is a long time.

The orioles are too loaded with potential hobby stars for Gunnar to stand out.

Witt will live in Jrods shadow from the hobby standpoint.

JJ Abrams has too many other film projects coming up to focus on baseball.

First off, there can be elite classes in different eras. Just because we watched Maddux, Pedro, and Unit dominate the 90s and aughts, it doesn’t mean that Kershaw, Scherzer, and Verlander are slouches.

Plus, the past shortstops you mentioned are an imperfect bunch.

Nomar was short-lived and ‘roided out of his gourd. A-Rod was also a habitual user, though he was an elite talent regardless. Larkin was a fine player, but with all due respect to our Reds friends in this forum, he‘s not a standard-bearer. He never led the league in any category, and he had a career 116 OPS+. I don’t want to start a Jeter debate, but Jeter the player (opposed to Jeter the Yankees figure) is probably on the same plain as Biggio, Molitor, and Yount (not all shortstops, but comparable as infielders). He’s a HOFer who did great things. But it’s not a stretch to think this emerging crop could be better baseball players than Jeter. (Championships and longevity, not withstanding.)

Meanwhile, the four youngins all have 30/30 potential. The rule changes certainly help with that, so that shouldn’t be overlooked. But they all can hit, and they’re all super young.

And I wouldn’t worry about Gunnar being on a team with too many stars. Jeter played with some pretty good players. The Dodgers are currently loaded. The Big Red Machine has several players that people continue to collect. If the Orioles are perennial contenders and Gunnar proves to be their best player (which I personally believe he will), that won’t stunt his star potential.


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[eye4talent]

Originally Posted by ThoseBackPages

i think gunner's "issue" is that he is part of a machine-like team in Baltimore.
they are all so "good" that they just blend together. Which is cool if your are an O's fan, but not so much if you are just a fan of collecting. i think Holliday could face the same issue if he "makes it"

Witt IS the Royals, Elly IS the Reds

These things matter when it comes to the hobby.

is it the end all? of course not, but i do believe it matters

At the moment, the O’s players all blend together, and there are more talents on the way—such as Coby Mayo. But it’s quite possible that one will emerge and stand out. If Gunnar is Chipper Jones (but a shortstop with some speed), does it matter if he’s playing with other great players?

Maybe it ends up more like the current Atlanta situation, where Acuna is the undisputed star who came up around the same time as Albies and Riley, with Harris not all that far behind. Lots of talent, but there is a clear No. 1 of the group.


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[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by eye4talent

First off, there can be elite classes in different eras. Just because we watched Maddux, Pedro, and Unit dominate the 90s and aughts, it doesn’t mean that Kershaw, Scherzer, and Verlander are slouches.

Plus, the past shortstops you mentioned are an imperfect bunch.

Nomar was short-lived and ‘roided out of his gourd. A-Rod was also a habitual user, though he was an elite talent regardless. Larkin was a fine player, but with all due respect to our Reds friends in this forum, he‘s not a standard-bearer. He never led the league in any category, and he had a career 116 OPS+. I don’t want to start a Jeter debate, but Jeter the player (opposed to Jeter the Yankees figure) is probably on the same plain as Biggio, Molitor, and Yount (not all shortstops, but comparable as infielders). He’s a HOFer who did great things. But it’s not a stretch to think this emerging crop could be better baseball players than Jeter. (Championships and longevity, not withstanding.)

Meanwhile, the four youngins all have 30/30 potential. The rule changes certainly help with that, so that shouldn’t be overlooked. But they all can hit, and they’re all super young.

And I wouldn’t worry about Gunnar being on a team with too many stars. Jeter played with some pretty good players. The Dodgers are currently loaded. The Big Red Machine has several players that people continue to collect. If the Orioles are perennial contenders and Gunnar proves to be their best player (which I personally believe he will), that won’t stunt his star potential.


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I’m seeing it from the hobby standpoint primarily.

By definition, you can only have one alpha hobby male per team. Even on the Angels, it was Trout, then it became Ohtani when they were on the same team.

Every young prospect has the 30/30,.300 potential, the guys you mentioned have to sustain that for a decade before they can be properly awarded. Otherwise, you could say every 5 years there’s a generational batch of young shortstops who could set the hobby on fire.

If Bobby gets even close to the career numbers of where Lindor is today, he would become an MLB success but may no longer be a hobby success - see where Lindor’s cards sell for today.

There wasn’t much higher hype in this hobby ever for Jeter/arod/nomar when they were 3-5th year players. Today is nothing compared to when they dominated the hobby.

[marl1220]

What annoys me as a Yankees fan is the Yanks passed right over Gunner to get Volpe. A left handed short stop, with that much talent, playing in Yankee stadium and they said, "Nope. We'll pass". Someone needs to be smacked in the head with a shovel.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by eye4talent

Larkin was a fine player, but with all due respect to our Reds friends in this forum, he‘s not a standard-bearer. He never led the league in any category, and he had a career 116 OPS+.

Meanwhile, the four youngins all have 30/30 potential.

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Just wanted to point out that Larkin actually was a 30/30 guy, not just had 30/30 potential.

[eye4talent]

Originally Posted by marl1220

What annoys me as a Yankees fan is the Yanks passed right over Gunner to get Volpe. A left handed short stop, with that much talent, playing in Yankee stadium and they said, "Nope. We'll pass". Someone needs to be smacked in the head with a shovel.

The whole league passed over him. Players can certainly make big leaps in their late teens/early 20s, but it’s still pretty wild that he slipped to the second round.

At least you got Volpe. As Giants fan, I watched my team use late first-round picks on Nick Noonan, Conor Gillaspie, Charlie Culberson, and Christian Arroyo all within a six-year period. (Arroyo did net them Lomgoria later on, though.) There isn’t a very high rate of success late in the first round, so I’d say Volpe was still a great pick. (It just could’ve been a little better.)


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[MiamiMarlinsFan]

Originally Posted by Imnottheonly

I do think there is a significant gap between Witt/Gunnar/Elly and CJ personally. Currently seems like CJ is getting that post hype rise but I personally don’t think he’s got the same power potential and playing for the Nats isn’t going to help. I see him as a multi time all star but the other three have legit MVP ceilings.

Of the three I’d say:

Highest Floor- Gunnar
Lowest Floor- Elly
Highest Ceiling- Elly
Lowest Ceiling- tough but I’m probably going Gunnar here.
Best team situation- Gunnar (being in the playoffs consistently matters)
First to win an MVP- Witt (AL central is winnable this year and if KC manages that his narrative combined with his numbers would be enough I think)

I agree that assuming these guys all stick at short that this is going to be a fun debate for the next decade about who is the best.

Honestly the fact that Gunnar’s first bowman auto in a PSA10 is like $400 cheaper than Witt or $200 cheaper than Elly is wild to me. Considering he is coming of a ROY season and was in preseason conversations as a possible MVP candidate the fact that he’s not commanding the same type of prices as at least Elly is crazy, maybe he’s not going to be a hobby darling?

That just means you haven’t been watching him play. If you only track HR totals and fantasy rankings I could see someone thinking that, but CJ is the real deal. Not just at hitting HRs, but his fielding and base running are elite. I hate saying nice things about him, but I’m close to being completely priced-out of anything good. I have currently Witt/Elly/Gunnar ranked night, CJ is right there with them. I think I might have CJ third actually.

[hermanotarjeta]

Top 5 SS prospects in early 2024:

Holliday/Montgomery/Lawler/Mayer/Merrill

There is some heavy hitting potential every single year nowadays, ever since Cal revolutionized the position and Jeter/arod/nomar took it to a new level to where it still stands today.

[oddstuff]

Very easy to forget how great of a career start the players of the past got off to and get caught up with fast starts of the latest hotshots that have not even been for a full season (it's a long season...let's see where they're at in September). Highly doubt any of the current crop of SS being able to put up the below first five full seasons of the players below. Even Witt, with 2 very good seasons, is already behind the 5 year offensive averages of these two 90s greats.

Witt (2022-2023, 21-22 age season)
179 runs (80/yr), 327 hits (164/yr), 50 hrs (25/yr), 176 RBIs (88/yr), 79 sbs (40/yr), 0.265 avg

Jeter: 1996-2000 (21-25 age seasons)
600 runs (120/yr), 996 hits (199/yr), 78 hrs (16/yr), 407 RBIs (81/yr), 108 sbs (22/yr), 0.323 avg

ARod: 1996-2000 (20-24 age seasons)
608 runs (122/yr), 922 hits (184/yr), 184 hrs (37/yr), 574 RBIs (115/yr), 126 sbs (25/yr), 0.315 avg

[Rbradleigh]

Originally Posted by eye4talent

We saw the Bobby Witt Jr. breakout last year. And now, we appear to be witnessing similar rises to stardom by at least three other young shortstops: Elly De La Cruz, Gunnar Henderson, and CJ Abrams.

It’s possible that Oneil Cruz will get there, too, but his bat has been up and down thus far in 2024. Plus, he’s older. Anthony Volpe and Ezequiel Tovar are also proving to be more impactful this year. While they might not be superstar level, that could earn some future all-star nods. (And, of course, one of them is a Yankee.)

So, are we witnessing the rise of a new class of elite shortstops? Are Witt, EDLC, Gunnar, and CJ all for real? Which ones stand out to you? Do you believe in one or some more than others?


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[hermanotarjeta]

Originally Posted by Rbradleigh

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Haha!

[Rbradleigh]

Originally Posted by eye4talent

First off, there can be elite classes in different eras. Just because we watched Maddux, Pedro, and Unit dominate the 90s and aughts, it doesn’t mean that Kershaw, Scherzer, and Verlander are slouches.

Plus, the past shortstops you mentioned are an imperfect bunch.

Nomar was short-lived and ‘roided out of his gourd. A-Rod was also a habitual user, though he was an elite talent regardless. Larkin was a fine player, but with all due respect to our Reds friends in this forum, he‘s not a standard-bearer. He never led the league in any category, and he had a career 116 OPS+. I don’t want to start a Jeter debate, but Jeter the player (opposed to Jeter the Yankees figure) is probably on the same plain as Biggio, Molitor, and Yount (not all shortstops, but comparable as infielders). He’s a HOFer who did great things. But it’s not a stretch to think this emerging crop could be better baseball players than Jeter. (Championships and longevity, not withstanding.)

Meanwhile, the four youngins all have 30/30 potential. The rule changes certainly help with that, so that shouldn’t be overlooked. But they all can hit, and they’re all super young.

And I wouldn’t worry about Gunnar being on a team with too many stars. Jeter played with some pretty good players. The Dodgers are currently loaded. The Big Red Machine has several players that people continue to collect. If the Orioles are perennial contenders and Gunnar proves to be their best player (which I personally believe he will), that won’t stunt his star potential.


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Nomar roided out of his gourd? Don’t believe I ever read any of these accusations or conjecture til now?


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