"MLB reclassifies Negro Leagues as major league"...Card Value Effect?
 

It seems that Negro league stats will be counted as major league stats now...

Thats great news

Im guessing they will go off of stats that were taken during oficial games and not barnstorming

[QUOTE=awz50;16760453]Thats great news

Im guessing they will go off of stats that were taken during oficial games and not barnstorming[/QUOTE]

Dissagree, they should now also count Japanese leagues. Ichiro all time hit king, Sadaharu Oh the new all time Home Run King.

Now that's sweet justice! Hopefully the records of all of those games and stats are available for them to go through so they can update the record books.

[QUOTE=Soxrule111;16760486]Dissagree, they should now also count Japanese leagues. Ichiro all time hit king, Sadaharu Oh the new all time Home Run King.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, what’s the difference? Stephon Marbury is now an all-time NBA player right? They were a different league and there’s nothing wrong with that, this makes no sense.

Oh, no. We're going this direction, huh?

Just lock it now.

[QUOTE=teosdesserts;16760492]Exactly, what’s the difference? Stephon Marbury is now an all-time NBA player right? They were a different league and there’s nothing wrong with that, this makes no sense.[/QUOTE]

LOL, that's your comparison?

You really can't see the difference between a league that existed because they weren't allowed to play in the majors vs. a dude who went to a lesser talented league because he could no longer play in the NBA?

Back on subject, this is great news. I can't wait to see what they have for guys like Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson.

This is great. But it’s going to get record book purists very triggered.

[QUOTE=Soxrule111;16760486]Dissagree, they should now also count Japanese leagues. Ichiro all time hit king, Sadaharu Oh the new all time Home Run King.[/QUOTE]

Here’s the difference: Ichiro and Oh could come over and play in the majors if they wanted

Players that played in the Negro league we’re literally banned from the MLB due to their skin color.

Recognizing the Negro league as stats makes complete sense because they were playing in the highest league possible at the time because once again, they were banned from the MLB

[QUOTE=no10pin;16760509]LOL, that's your comparison?

You really can't see the difference between a league that existed because they weren't allowed to play in the majors vs. a dude who went to a lesser talented league because he could no longer play in the NBA?

Back on subject, this is great news. I can't wait to see what they have for guys like Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson.[/QUOTE]

The outside politics and cultural problems surrounding the negro leagues is obviously entirely different. My point of contention here is that they were a different league and including their stats in comparison to MLB doesn’t make sense. Avid baseball fans look at Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, Sadaharu Oh, etc with great esteem given their accomplishments in their respective leagues. Combining the statistics from different leagues with different talent levels, playing conditions, etc is not fair to players on either end of the spectrum. They were very talented players in their own right, denied a chance to play in the MLB due to systemic rules that they had no control over and no amount of advocacy can change that history.

Statistics for leagues are relevant to the talent levels at the time in those leagues. The MLB has its own records, as do the negro leagues and it’s not unjust to keep them apart, the players competing and the access to equipment and facilities were not fair between the two. It’s not rocket science to understand the differences and to acknowledge greatness existed in both scenarios and it’s a shame that things happened as they did but there’s no time machine we can use to stamp out Jim Crow laws and cultural stigmas they kept these players apart in the first place....

[QUOTE=teosdesserts;16760565]The outside politics and cultural problems surrounding the negro leagues is obviously entirely different. My point of contention here is that they were a different league and including their stats in comparison to MLB doesn’t make sense. Avid baseball fans look at Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, Sadaharu Oh, etc with great esteem given their accomplishments in their respective leagues. Combining the statistics from different leagues with different talent levels, playing conditions, etc is not fair to players on either end of the spectrum. They were very talented players in their own right, denied a chance to play in the MLB due to systemic rules that they had no control over and no amount of advocacy can change that history.

Statistics for leagues are relevant to the talent levels at the time in those leagues. The MLB has its own records, as do the negro leagues and it’s not unjust to keep them apart, the players competing and the access to equipment and facilities were not fair between the two. It’s not rocket science to understand the differences and to acknowledge greatness existed in both scenarios and it’s a shame that things happened as they did but there’s no time machine we can use to stamp out Jim Crow laws and cultural stigmas they kept these players apart in the first place....[/QUOTE]


To some extent, I agree.

Josh Gibson goes from 1st place all time in HR's to, what, 200th?

People need to realize also they aren't going to crow josh Gibson and satchel Paige the homerun king or the strikeout king.

Nobody can prove that they had those stats. In the end im guessing gibsons all time homeruns will be counted under 200 and satchel will be at around 166 wins and 2000 Ks

[QUOTE=Eckstein197;16760561]Here’s the difference: Ichiro and Oh could come over and play in the majors if they wanted

Players that played in the Negro league we’re literally banned from the MLB due to their skin color.

Recognizing the Negro league as stats makes complete sense because they were playing in the highest league possible at the time because once again, they were banned from the MLB[/QUOTE]

But saying the foreign leagues are lesser talents, you dont truley believe 50% of the Negro leagues were MLB Talent do you? It was a lesser league by all means, just like the Mexican leagues and others.

[QUOTE=teosdesserts;16760565]The outside politics and cultural problems surrounding the negro leagues is obviously entirely different. My point of contention here is that they were a different league and including their stats in comparison to MLB doesn’t make sense. Avid baseball fans look at Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, Sadaharu Oh, etc with great esteem given their accomplishments in their respective leagues. Combining the statistics from different leagues with different talent levels, playing conditions, etc is not fair to players on either end of the spectrum. They were very talented players in their own right, denied a chance to play in the MLB due to systemic rules that they had no control over and no amount of advocacy can change that history.

Statistics for leagues are relevant to the talent levels at the time in those leagues. The MLB has its own records, as do the negro leagues and it’s not unjust to keep them apart, the players competing and the access to equipment and facilities were not fair between the two. It’s not rocket science to understand the differences and to acknowledge greatness existed in both scenarios and it’s a shame that things happened as they did but there’s no time machine we can use to stamp out Jim Crow laws and cultural stigmas they kept these players apart in the first place....[/QUOTE]

There's still a difference between a league that exists out of necessity vs. a league that is made up of players who either cannot compete at the top level or choose not to because of geography.

I get the point about different talent levels, but if you want to make the point that Negro League players didn't have to pitch to Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig, the same could be said for those guys not having to hit off of Satchel Paige.

MLB recognizes stats from leagues like the American Association from the late 1800s, I expect this to be somewhat similar to that. That said, I don't think they have given many parameters around this. There will have to be a distinction between the official league and whatever stats were kept for the barnstorming games.

Why can’t Satchel Paige have some ridonkulous IP and K totals put into the record books? There are quite a few pitchers in the early 1900’s (and to a less extent mid-1900’s) pitched 40+ complete games in a season. I understand that the levels of play may or may not be equal, but the white only MLB didn’t have the best of the Negro Leagues hitting against them (and vice versa). Pitching from before the 1960’s will never translate to today’s game.

It’s just unfortunate that we’ll never really know how good Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige would’ve been playing in an integrated MLB during their primes. And let’s be honest, if Satchel had an ERA+ of 124 for the 476 IP he was able to play in MLB at ages 41-46, I think it’s easy to surmise he could’ve been an all-time great if he could’ve pitched in his 20’s and 30’s.

[QUOTE=Soxrule111;16760650]But saying the foreign leagues are lesser talents, you dont truley believe 50% of the Negro leagues were MLB Talent do you? It was a lesser league by all means, just like the Mexican leagues and others.[/QUOTE]

If black folks were allowed to play, you don’t truly believe a massive - or a statistically significant - portion of white players would be MLB Talent do you?

[QUOTE=RiceBondsMT2Yng;16760677]If black folks were allowed to play, you don’t truly believe a massive portion of white players would be MLB Talent do you?[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

If your argument is the Negro League stats shouldn't count because it was an inferior league, then MLB stats before 1947 shouldn't count either since it was also an inferior league.

[QUOTE=no10pin;16760662]There's still a difference between a league that exists out of necessity vs. a league that is made up of players who either cannot compete at the top level or choose not to because of geography.

[B]I get the point about different talent levels, but if you want to make the point that Negro League players didn't have to pitch to Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig, the same could be said for those guys not having to hit off of Satchel Paige[/B].

MLB recognizes stats from leagues like the American Association from the late 1800s, I expect this to be somewhat similar to that. That said, I don't think they have given many parameters around this. There will have to be a distinction between the official league and whatever stats were kept for the barnstorming games.[/QUOTE]

This is exactly my point.

[QUOTE=free2131;16760706]Exactly.

If your argument is the Negro League stats shouldn't count because it was an inferior league, then MLB stats before 1947 shouldn't count either since it was also an inferior league.[/QUOTE]

Very good point

If it could be done acurately, I would love to see what all leagues combined stats would look like. MLB, Negro Leagues, Japanese Leagues, Mexican Leagues, etc. The problem is the record keeping has been done differently across each of these, so any combining will just end up in a mess with arguments that can be made for or against any side.

[QUOTE=Soxrule111;16760650]But saying the foreign leagues are lesser talents, you dont truley believe 50% of the Negro leagues were MLB Talent do you? It was a lesser league by all means, just like the Mexican leagues and others.[/QUOTE]

Ok, this is an incredibly idiotic comment, comparing Mexican leagues of today or modern history where the players could play in MLB if their talent was good enough to negro leagues where players could never play in MLB no matter what, then make a declaration that less than 50% would be MLB worthy when there is no way to compare because the first half of the 1900’s was racist AF and would never allow it. 1900-1950’s baseball was very different, players didn’t train year round, didn’t have fancy metrics to improve by, it was basic talent and did you get a hit (batter) or get the batter out (pitcher). I would guess a decent % of black players would’ve been talented enough to make MLB rosters if the world was colorblind. I would guess that 50% of white only MLB couldn’t make the Negro Leagues, and 50% of the Negro Leagues wouldn’t make MLB... maybe there’s a 60/40 split, but again we don’t have a way to properly compare.

[QUOTE=teosdesserts;16760725]This is exactly my point.[/QUOTE]

You want them kept separate because they were separate leagues, and I get that. They are simply recognizing Negro League stats as 'major league', similar to what was done with other organizations in the 1800s. Right now they are treated kind of like minor league stats, and this feels like an effort to correct that.

Before inter-league play, the AL and NL were only connected by one series that doesn't count in the regular season stats that were are talking about. Why aren't those kept separate?

Nevermind

[QUOTE=Soxrule111;16760650]But saying the foreign leagues are lesser talents, you dont truley believe 50% of the Negro leagues were MLB Talent do you? It was a lesser league by all means, just like the Mexican leagues and others.[/QUOTE]

But those players such as Gibson and Satchel, could not physically play in the MLB due to their skin color. It wasn’t a choice, they were banned from it. I’m sure they would’ve loved to play if they were given a chance, like Satchel pitching in the bigs in his mid 40s.

As stated by numerous other posters here, the MLB was not full of the best talent because some of the best talent was in the Negro leagues

[QUOTE=smapdi;16760768]On what do you base that assumption?[/QUOTE]

Who are you responding to? You didn’t quote anyone