Kobe fans - why do you think he's one of the greatest?
 

First off, this isn't some kind of troll thread. I'm not here to start a fight, though that's what will inevitably happen, I'm sure. I'm just honestly curious about this.

And I also don't want anyone to think I feel Kobe is some scrub. He was great, obviously. But like, top 10-15 all-time great.

But every time I see these GOAT threads rolled out, it's always the same names, and justifiably so: MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird, etc etc.

This isn't a discussion about who GOAT is. Some say MJ, some say Lebron. Some say Kareem. They all have valid points. I'm not here to argue about that.

What I am curious about though is that Kobe's name somehow also always ends up in these lists of names, but why? Is it just the rings? Because honestly there isn't much else to support it.

First off, let me link to the basketball-reference pages for all the above names:

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html"]MJ[/URL]

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html"]Lebron[/URL]

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html"]Kareem[/URL]

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html"]Wilt[/URL]

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/russebi01.html"]Russell[/URL]

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html"]Magic[/URL]

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html"]Bird[/URL]

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html"]Kobe[/URL]

Certainly one would think that the greatest players of all time would be voted MVPs. Well, every player on that list has at _least_ 3 of them. All of them but Kobe, that is.

But let's go into some numbers. You click on literally ANY of those players and go to the 'Advanced' section, there are all kinds of metrics for value - PER, win shares, win shares/48, offensive/defensive/overall box plus/minus, VORP, etc. Bold numbers mean that they led the league. All those players have multiple bolds all over the place. I mean, look at MJ's and Lebron's. Bold everywhere.

Kobe literally has 0. The only bold he does have is in usage rate, which isn't a huge surprise - he had the ball a lot.

People talk about how Kobe was a killer, or Mamba mentality, or whatever you want to call it. Ok, that's fine - but how did that translate into actual value? Kobe played for a long time - and he never led the league in any value-related metric? Not once? When every other player on any GOAT discussion has had multiple? Is this just a coincidence?

I don't want this to sound like I'm being antagonistic or something, but I'm not - I'm genuinely dumbfounded. How can anyone make the case that Kobe belongs in the truly top tier of basketball players all-time? Am I missing something?

I don’t see a stat for killer instinct, hating to lose more than loving to win and the uncanny ability to work harder than anybody else. Other than Jordan I think Kobe leads all of these categories against the names you mentioned

Edit Also you can’t discredit the;

18 all-star games
15 all nba teams
12 all defensive teams
1 MVP
2 finals MVP’s
5 championships
2x scoring champ
4th all time in points

Seems like You’re cherry picking but whatever

Titles count

For one game, only guy I’m taking over Kobe is MJ.

most overrated player ever by casualfan... rip

He is one of the greatest scorer of all time. 1 eighty-point game, 6 sixty-point games (including his final game), 26 fifty-point games, and 134 forty-point games in his entire career. He won back to back championships after hitting the dreaded 30 year cap with a team of 1 all star and reserves. Did MJ ever do that? Played 20 consecutive years with one team and won 5 championships and 18 all star selections out of a 20 year career. He is third all time in total scoring and post scoring. Nobody does it like Mamba with a transition from the 90’s, 2000’s and 0′10s. It’s always going to be a debate on who’s the GOAT but to make the argument for Kobe he was able to accomplish what the other greats accomplished as far as winning but not having the same physical gifts. MJ and LeBron are both bigger stronger and faster and more athletic, Kareem is over 7′0″ with an unstoppable shot, Magic was a 6′8″ point guard so for Kobe to even compete with that he had to be more skilled and work even harder.

few things

1. ability to score is Goat level, right up there with MJ despite being less athletic
2.intangibles (determination, legendary work ethic)
3. a LOT of memorable and career defining games, similar to MJ
4. must see tv, whether you love to see him rise or fail
5. well spoken, a good ambassador for brands like mj
6.proven as an elite 2 way player
7. revered by his peers, pretty much the ultimate compliment for a player
8. offensively, probably the most skilled in the game in terms of overall balance
9. 5 championships
10. 81 points


kobe’s gift was also his curse (hero ball) his advance stats was severely hurt by it thats why he’s not considered by most as a Top 10 player. his colorado thing and his feud with shaq were also detrimental to his legacy.


i dont think he’s the goat, but he’s easily in my top 5 (jordan, lebron, kareem, magic, kobe)

Regarding him only having one MVP Kobe stans will argue he should’ve won one that Nash won and another that Duncan won.

He also was the clear Robin to Shaq’s Batman for the first three titles.

My top 5 is

Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain

Kobe is just a more athletic and talented basketball player than Magic and Bird imo. Also was more productive and dominant for a greater amount of time.

12x all defensive has to count for something as well, right?

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You can't always judge greatness by numbers or stats alone.

One thing for sure, Kobe has come as close to the Jordan Gold Standard as i've ever seen in any player's skills, style and motivation. No one else has even come close to Kobe out of anyone I have seen ever since.

It's difficult to understand if you never saw Kobe play - his presence was certainly noticeable.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;15838421]You can't always judge greatness by numbers or stats alone.
[/QUOTE]

That is true, but it's just odd that someone as revered as Kobe was for being an all-time great was _never_ the league leader in any sort of value metric.

I mean, there are really only 2 possibilities:

That value-based metrics seem to work in painting a pretty accurate picture for every GOAT-level player in the history of the NBA (and it seems the more bold there is, the generally better the player is - MJ/Lebron have tons, Magic/Bird less so, but still have some) EXCEPT for Kobe, where the numbers presumably fail to tell the complete story, or

Kobe is simply not a GOAT-level player.

Obviously I'm gonna go with the latter, but apparently there are people ITT who are going with the former because of his crazy work ethic and 'mamba mentality'. I don't agree with that, but at least I can understand it, I guess.

[QUOTE=Noles939913;15838359]Regarding him only having one MVP Kobe stans will argue he should’ve won one that Nash won and another that Duncan won.

He also was the clear Robin to Shaq’s Batman for the first three titles.[/QUOTE]

shaq was dominant for sure...against todd mccullough and undersized kenyon martin, antonio davis/dale davis and an old dikembe, he should be putting those numbers in the finals.

problem with this argument is shaq couldn't close for the lakers in some series due to hack-a-shaq and foul troubles. he was easier to neutralize and pop and adelman took advantage of it. if it wasn't for kobe's brilliance- shaq would be ringless as the main option, similar to penny-shaq duo.


i've always said it became 1A and 1B in their 2nd and 3rd championships. kobe's series against the blazers, sacramento kings and San antonio were impressive. and those were considered as the real NBA finals back then.

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/DYWN8fsHi2M7oaUfGWaNcFOxcBqSf8BgVDVaevC5PKHYFJ1CQcUFALH4JYszMfWRTsLDyhGl[/IMG]

You seem to be asking two different questions:
1. Why is he the GOAT? (don't really see many people claiming this)
2. Is he one of the greatest? (most would agree he is one of the top 10-15 players of all time)

Plenty of people say he is the best scorer of all time. Maybe even the best shooter of all time, although plenty of people will disagree with either of these. Very few say he is THE greatest of all time (i.e., number one). But virtually everyone would agree he is one of the greatest of all time, the only difference is in what list (top 5? top 10? top 15? top 20?).

[QUOTE=JVO;15838321] He won back to back championships after hitting the dreaded 30 year cap with a team of 1 all star and reserves. Did MJ ever do that? [/QUOTE]

Kobe's Lakers went 34-48 in Kobe's prime... now he did miss 16 games so maybe they went 34-32 when he played which is still awful in his prime. 45-37 the next season, 42-40 the year after and then Pau showed up and was the best player on the 65-17 team and 57-25 team that won titles. Kobe was never the best player on a title team.

[QUOTE=whoaitsg33;15838476]shaq was dominant for sure...against todd mccullough and undersized kenyon martin, antonio davis/dale davis and an old dikembe, he should be putting those numbers in the finals.

problem with this argument is shaq couldn't close for the lakers in some series due to hack-a-shaq and foul troubles. he was easier to neutralize and pop and adelman took advantage of it. if it wasn't for kobe's brilliance- shaq would be ringless as the main option, similar to penny-shaq duo.


i've always said it became 1A and 1B in their 2nd and 3rd championships. kobe's series against the blazers, sacramento kings and San antonio were impressive. and those were considered as the real NBA finals back then.

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/DYWN8fsHi2M7oaUfGWaNcFOxcBqSf8BgVDVaevC5PKHYFJ1CQcUFALH4JYszMfWRTsLDyhGl[/IMG][/QUOTE]

This is a bizarre argument you have here. Kobe stan detected.

[QUOTE=aggie4ever;15838483]You seem to be asking two different questions:
1. Why is he the GOAT? (don't really see many people claiming this)
2. Is he one of the greatest? ([B]most would agree he is one of the top 10-15 players of all time[/B])
[/QUOTE]

Well that's the thing - if the actual consensus among most fans is that Kobe is top 10-15, then I didn't even need to create this thread - I'm totally on board with that.

But maybe it's just because I live in SoCal but my impression seems to be that the majority of fans put him in the top 5 all-time, with a significant number putting him at #2. I can't comprehend that.

[QUOTE=whoaitsg33;15838476]shaq was dominant for sure...against todd mccullough and undersized kenyon martin, antonio davis/dale davis and an old dikembe, he should be putting those numbers in the finals.

problem with this argument is shaq couldn't close for the lakers in some series due to hack-a-shaq and foul troubles. he was easier to neutralize and pop and adelman took advantage of it. if it wasn't for kobe's brilliance- shaq would be ringless as the main option, similar to penny-shaq duo.


i've always said it became 1A and 1B in their 2nd and 3rd championships. kobe's series against the blazers, sacramento kings and San antonio were impressive. and those were considered as the real NBA finals back then.
[/QUOTE]

Kobe shot 41.9% against the Kings. He shot 43.9% against the Blazers, He did crush against the Spurs.

[QUOTE=Matt24;15838486]Kobe's Lakers went 34-48 in Kobe's prime... now he did miss 16 games so maybe they went 34-32 when he played which is still awful in his prime. 45-37 the next season, 42-40 the year after and then Pau showed up and was the best player on the 65-17 team and 57-25 team that won titles. Kobe was never the best player on a title team.[/QUOTE]

And don't forget in the 2 playoff appearances he had without a Shaq or Pau by his side, he got booted in the first round both times.

[QUOTE=markinca;15838463]That is true, but it's just odd that someone as revered as Kobe was for being an all-time great was _never_ the league leader in any sort of value metric.

I mean, there are really only 2 possibilities:

That value-based metrics seem to work in painting a pretty accurate picture for every GOAT-level player in the history of the NBA (and it seems the more bold there is, the generally better the player is - MJ/Lebron have tons, Magic/Bird less so, but still have some) EXCEPT for Kobe, where the numbers presumably fail to tell the complete story, or

Kobe is simply not a GOAT-level player.

Obviously I'm gonna go with the latter, but apparently there are people ITT who are going with the former because of his crazy work ethic and 'mamba mentality'. I don't agree with that, but at least I can understand it, I guess.[/QUOTE]

Scoring titles aren’t a value based stat?
4th all time scoring isn’t a value based stat?
What kind of value based metric does his 12 all defensive teams count for? (Ties for second most all defensive teams with KG, only Duncan has more)

Kobe’s greatest amount of team help came early in his career. After Shaq left he played with mostly bums. Other than Gasol (Some people will argue he’s not a HOF’er as well) how many prime HOF’ers came say he played with after the Shaq days?

Bird had Mchale, parish, DJ and Archibald (also Walton but he wasn’t HOF level in 86)
MJ for all his greatness had Rodman for the second 3peat and had Pippen (arguably the greatest second fiddle of all time)
Magic had Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, McAdoo, Haywood
Kareem had all that help in LA and had the big O in Milwaukee

I’d argue Kobe was asked to do more with less the second half of his career than any of those guys

The start of Kobe's career was overshadowed by the end of Jordan's career greatness.

The middle of Kobe's career was overshadwed by the peak of Shaquille's career dominance.

And the end of Kobe's career was overshadowed by Lebron's quality skills and uberhype.

The reason why Kobe doesn't seem dominant in his generation is the same reason Tim Duncan gets overlooked - they played their entire careers during the peak performance years of other top 20 players in NBA history. Doesn't mean he isn't a top 10 guy, just as Duncan and Dirk should not be discredited for that.

Lebron came along when the four previous draft years were probably amongst the worst in recent NBA history (1999-2002) and for a few years afterwards as well (2004-2006), so Bron was able to shine in an era with pretty poor quality contemporary players, and with very few all time greats playing at the best during his time, (Kobe, Nowitzki and Duncan), and losing to many of them.

If you are questioning Kobe's greatness, you must also question why Lebron is considered an all-time great, for despite all his individual accolades, he could only squeeze out an overwhelming losing record in the finals.

[QUOTE=Matt24;15838486]Kobe's Lakers went 34-48 in Kobe's prime... now he did miss 16 games so maybe they went 34-32 when he played which is still awful in his prime. 45-37 the next season, 42-40 the year after and then Pau showed up and was the best player on the 65-17 team and 57-25 team that won titles. Kobe was never the best player on a title team.[/QUOTE]

Don't think this is a well thought out analysis considering Kobe had this supporting cast over those years...

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[QUOTE=Matt24;15838510]Kobe shot 41.9% against the Kings. He shot 43.9% against the Blazers, He did crush against the Spurs.[/QUOTE]

since when do we judge a player by JUST fg%?

that analysis so outdated lol

kobe averaged 35 4 and 9 in 2001 series against the kings

and 27, 6 and 4 in 2002

[QUOTE=markinca;15838512]And don't forget in the 2 playoff appearances he had without a Shaq or Pau by his side, he got booted in the first round both times.[/QUOTE]

newsflash: superstars needs help


Lol

Because Kobe won 2 championships with players who were not really NBA material. The team was always dead last when Kobe got injured. Muhammad Ali was not the pound for pound best fighter, but he is regarded the greatest as he had to overcome many obstacles like racism and Vietnam, and prevailed. Kobe overcame many obstacles as well, and would have never joined a stacked team to win championships. He was a fighter, thus he is the greatest basketball player of all time, as far as his career. Shaq is the best when it comes to who was the greatest when they were on top of their game.

[QUOTE=Noles939913;15838359]Regarding him only having one MVP Kobe stans will argue he should’ve won one that Nash won and another that Duncan won.

He also was the clear Robin to Shaq’s Batman for the first three titles.[/QUOTE]

So who is the Robin between Magic and Kareem? Who carried who?