QUESTONS for those who feel Tim Brady is the GOAT
 

Firstly, I'm not a Brady fan nor a Brady hater.

Secondly, I think he is one of the greatest QB's ever.

HOWEVER, I don't understand why anyone considers him the GOAT.

Listen, football is the epitome of a "team" sport. It's not boxing or tennis and it's not even basketball where one star player can carry a team to victory almost single-handedly.

There are 22 starters plus special teams in football and one player simply cannot carry a team to victory on the NFL level, no matter how great that one player is. This being the case, I have a very hard time factoring in "team success" to discussions of which player was the greatest "individual" player.

For example, there is nothing anyone can say that will ever make me believe that Terry Bradshaw was a better QB than Brett Favre, wven though he has three more rings. There is a reason Bradshaw was named 1st team all-pro just once and Favre was a three time 1st team all-pro and three time NFL MVP!

The above said, I sincerely want to hear from all those who actually believe that Tom Brady is THE GOAT after they read and consider and reply to the following:

Tom Brady's "individual" resume is nowhere near as impressive as many other players.

Tom Brady is a TWO time 1st team all-pro and TWO time MVP ... Aaron Rodgers has done the exact same thing and has only been a starting QB for 7 full seasons.

Jerry Rice was a TEN time 1st team all-pro and TWO time OPOY (as good as an MVP for a receiver).

Jim Brown was a EIGHT time 1st team all-pro, and FOUR time consensus MVP.

Peyton Manning was a SEVEN time 1st team all-pro and FIVE time MVP.

Brett Favre was a THREE time 1st team all-pro and THREE time MVP.

[B][COLOR="Red"]What makes Brady rank higher on your individual GOAT lists than the above players?[/COLOR][/B]

[B][COLOR="Blue"]Now, if your answer is, "Well, Brady has experienced more 'team success' than all of the above players, I would like to ask you WHY you rank Brady ahead of Joe Montana?[/COLOR][/B]

Joe Montana was a THREE time 1st team all-pro and TWO time MVP, which is better than Brady and Montana has just as many rings while also playing near perfect football in his Super Bowls and never having lost a single one. So again, I ask you, WHY do you personally rank Brady ahead of someone like Montana?

[B][COLOR="Purple"]Finally, I have one last question for you ... how in the world can you possibly rank Brady ahead of OTTO GRAHAM on an all-time GOAT list.[/COLOR][/B]

Graham was a SEVEN time 1st team all-pro (Brady is a two-time 1t team all-pro), THREE time MVP (Brady is a two-time MVP) ... and if you include "team success" in your formula for deciding who the GOAT was ... Graham played 10 years and went to TEN STRAIGHT title games (Brady has been to 6 in 14 full seasons) and won SEVEN rings (Brady has won four)!

In conclusion, I personally think Brady is an all-time great and belongs in the top 15 QB's of all-time with Graham, Montana, Manning, Favre, Marino, Unitas, Rodgers, Elway, Staubach, Moon, Young, Warner, Brees and Bradshaw and the top 100 players of all-time.

I do not however understand how anyone can seriously believe he is the GOAT and I would like to hear the reasons from those who do believe such.

As for me ... I voted for Jerry Rice as his individual greatness is beyond question and I just cannot possibly put that much weight on "rings" in a sport where there are 22 players plus special teams that greatly impact whether a team wins or loses ... however ... Rice does have three rings as well :-)

Don't know about this "Tim" fellow, but Tom Brady is pretty darn good : )

172-51 record, Highest winning percentage all time, and this....


NFL records
NFL (career)
Most games, 145+ passer rating, career: 13
Most games, 125+ passer rating, season: 7
Highest completion percentage, post-season game (minimum 20 attempts): 92.9
Most games with at least 75% pass completion rate and no interceptions, season (minimum 20 attempts per game): 6
Highest completion percentage, game (minimum 6 TD passes): 85.3
Longest pass completion: 99 yards (tied with 12 other QBs)
Most Passing Touchdowns, Season, Away: 29
Most Games 3+ TD Passes, Season: 12
Most consecutive home games with 1+ touchdown pass: 47
Most Consecutive Uninterrupted Games, 1+ Touchdown Passes: 52
Most Consecutive Games, 3+ Touchdown Passes: 10
Most Passing Touchdowns, one quarter: 5
Most games, 115+ passer rating, season: 10, Aaron Rodgers 2011, Tom Brady 2007, Steve Young 1994
Most games, 120+ passer rating, season: 8, Tom Brady, 2007, Philip Rivers, 2008
Most games, 140+ passer rating, season: 4, Jacky Lee 1961, Roger Staubach 1973, Tom Brady 2007 & 2010, Aaron Rodgers 2011 & 2014
Most games, 145+ passer rating, season: 4, Tom Brady 2007, Roger Staubach 1973
Most games, 150+ passer rating, season: 2, Steve Young 1993, Kurt Warner 1999, Tom Brady 2007, Drew Brees 2009, Aaron Rodgers 2014
Most seasons, 110+ passer rating: 2, Tom Brady 2007-2010, Peyton Manning 2004-2013, Aaron Rodgers 2011-2014
Most games 35 completions, season: 3, Tom Brady 2002, Rich Gannon 2002 and Peyton Manning 2010
Most passing yards, any quarter: 252, Tom Brady on October 19, 2009; Boomer Esiason on November 10, 1996
Most consecutive 400+ yards passing games: 2; Dan Fouts, 1982; Dan Marino, 1984; Phil Simms, 1985; Billy Volek, 2004; Matt Cassel, 2008; Cam Newton, 2011, Tom Brady, 2011; Philip Rivers, 2013
Most Games 1+ TD Passes, Season: 16, Dan Marino, 1984, 1986; Dave Krieg, 1984; Kurt Warner, 1999; Brett Favre, 2003; Daunte Culpepper, 2004; Tom Brady, 2010–2012; Drew Brees, 2010–2011, 2013-2014; Matthew Stafford, 2011; Peyton Manning, 2012–2013; Philip Rivers, 2013; Ben Roethlisberger, 2013
Most Seasons, 50+ Touchdown Passes: 1, Tom Brady, 2007; Peyton Manning, 2013
Most Consecutive Games, 5+ Touchdown Passes: 2, Ben Roethlisberger 2014, Tom Brady 2007, Daunte Culpepper 2004, Tom Flores (AFL) 1963,
Most consecutive home wins, regular season, by a starting quarterback: 31, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2006–2011
Most road wins in a season, regular season, by a starting quarterback: 8, Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers, 1990; Kurt Warner, St. Louis Rams, 2001; Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2007; Tony Romo, Dallas Cowboys, 2014
Most wins in a season, regular season and post-season, by a starting quarterback: 18, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2007
Most wins in a season, regular season, by a starting quarterback: 16, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2007
Most consecutive wins against a single opponent, regular season and post-season, by a starting quarterback: 13, Steve Young, San Francisco 49ers, vs. Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1987, 1991–1998; Tom Brady, New England Patriots vs. Buffalo Bills, 2003–2010
Most career wins with one team: 172
Fewest pass attempts to reach 400 passing touchdowns: 7,282
Has amassed eight 50-point games in his career, most in NFL history:
52 vs. Washington (10/28/07) 56 vs. Buffalo (11/18/07) 59 vs. Tennessee (10/18/09) 52 at Buffalo (9/30/12) 59 vs. Indianapolis (11/18/12) 55 vs. Pittsburgh (11/3/13) 51 vs. Chicago (10/26/14) 51 vs. Jacksonville (9/27/15)

Playoffs (career)
Most games played - 31[146]
Most games started for a quarterback - 31
Most games won as starting quarterback - 22
Most consecutive wins, post-season, by a starting quarterback: 10
Most consecutive wins to start a career, post-season, by a starting quarterback: 10, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2001, 2003–2005
Most career home wins, post-season, by a starting quarterback: 15, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2001–2016
Most consecutive home wins, post-season, by a starting quarterback: 8, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2001–2007; Jim Kelly, Buffalo Bills 1988, 1990–1991, 1993, 1995
Most touchdown passes - 56
Most yards gained - 7,345
Most passes completed - 683
Most passes attempted - 1,085
Most division titles for a starting quarterback - 13
Most NFL conference championship appearances for a starting quarterback - 10
Most NFL conference championship wins for a starting quarterback - 6
Most career 300+ passing yard games in postseason history

Super Bowl (career)
Most touchdown passes - 13[147]
Most yards gained - 1,605
Most passes completed - 164
Most passes attempted - 247
Most passes completed in first half of a single Super Bowl - 20
Most passes completed in a single Super Bowl - 37
Most Super Bowl appearances - 6 (tied with Mike Lodish)

Enough with the Brady threads, getting ridiculous

Both of the Brady options combined

[QUOTE=matt060488;10799074]Enough with the Brady threads, getting ridiculous[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="Red"][B]This has NOTHING to do with deflate gate ... and can become "the NFL GOAT thread" ... I hope it goes for a long, long time as there are a ton of options and it would be great to know who EVERYONE on this board believes the NFL GOAT is :)![/B]
[/COLOR]


[QUOTE=RogerGodahell;10799070]172-51 record, Highest winning percentage all time,[/quote]

[B][COLOR="Red"]Not true ... Otto Graham's is higher ;)

I also appreciate the stat-list you posted but guys like Manning, Rice and Jim Brown could have the same sort of lists.

What I'm looking for is for people to actually EXPLAIN "why" Brady rates ahead of guys, especially [U]Jerry Rice[/U] and [U]Otto Graham.[/U]

Now, I've got to go play monopoly with my children but I plan to reply to future posts later tonight.

[/COLOR][/B]

I was hoping/waiting for the Lawrence Taylor synopsis on why he was included in the conversation for voting, that must have been for me to prob be the only vote ,:)!

No serious football fan, at least outside of Brady's family, thinks Tom Brady is the GOAT.

If you believe he is the GOAT, then at least admit to yourself that you're biased as a Patriots fan. And if you still think he's GOAT after that, then consider a sport that's easier for you to follow... I hear drone racing is a thing now.

Brady is a great QB, though his reputation is forever tarnished by all the cheating NE has done. But even without the cheating it's laughable to consider him GOAT. It reminds me of people who think the most current pop star or actor is the greatest of all time in their respective fields.... because their fans don't know the history of all the greats that came before them.

[QUOTE=Jameis1of1;10799118][COLOR="Red"][B]This has NOTHING to do with deflate gate ... and can become "the NFL GOAT thread" ... I hope it goes for a long, long time as there are a ton of options and it would be great to know who EVERYONE on this board believes the NFL GOAT is :)![/B]
[/COLOR]




[B][COLOR="Red"]Not true ... Otto Graham's is higher ;)

I also appreciate the stat-list you posted but guys like Manning, Rice and Jim Brown could have the same sort of lists.

What I'm looking for is for people to actually EXPLAIN "why" Brady rates ahead of guys, especially [U]Jerry Rice[/U] and [U]Otto Graham.[/U]

Now, I've got to go play monopoly with my children but I plan to reply to future posts later tonight.

[/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]

Otto Graham played in the pre superbowl era when there were only like 12 teams and there were no playoffs just a championship game. What he did was still amazing but Brady has been to 10 afc championships and 6 super bowls with a playoff system. Back then the 2 teams with the best record just played a championship game. If that was still the case Brady would have already been in like i dont even know how many championships, a lot. Manning would have more appearances as well.

[QUOTE=matt060488;10799074]Enough with the Brady threads, getting ridiculous[/QUOTE]

It is pretty much from those who dislike him/NE. We try to keep it to the team thread but every now and again 7 spill out by those bored with their own teams :)

No serious football fan doesn't think Tom Brady is the GOAT.

If you don't believe he is the GOAT, then at least admit to yourself that you're a biased Patriots hater. And if you still don't think he's the GOAT after that, then consider a sport that's easier for you to follow... I hear drone racing is a thing now.

Never really hear that many people say he is the NFL GOAT, usually the QB GOAT

to me the NFL GOAT is Mr. Rice

EDIT: And QB GOAT is probably Montana

[QUOTE=ejs23;10799181]No serious football fan, at least outside of Brady's family, thinks Tom Brady is the GOAT.

If you believe he is the GOAT, then at least admit to yourself that you're biased as a Patriots fan. And if you still think he's GOAT after that, then consider a sport that's easier for you to follow... I hear drone racing is a thing now.

Brady is a great QB, though his reputation is forever tarnished by all the cheating NE has done. But even without the cheating it's laughable to consider him GOAT. It reminds me of people who think the most current pop star or actor is the greatest of all time in their respective fields.... because their fans don't know the history of all the greats that came before them.[/QUOTE]

Your posts on this topic are unbearable. Your constant trolling isn't even of the entertaining variety like phinz, it's just garbage. Go ahead and give me your "serious football fan" quiz and I guarantee I'll pass your little history test. Guess what? After I'm done, I'll still say Brady is one of the three best QB's of all time. So there goes your moronic theory.

[QUOTE=RogerGodahell;10799183]OBack then the 2 teams with the best record just played a championship game. If that was still the case Brady would have already been in like i dont even know how many championships, a lot. Manning would have more appearances as well.[/QUOTE]

If we are talking NFC, AFC combined, depending on tie-breakers the Patriots would still only have 4-6 Championship appearances. They just win their division, a lot but not always the best record.

This man.

[IMG]http://www.pittsburghsportsreport.com/PSR/sites/default/files/UP%20CLOSE_Johnny%2BUnitas_Getty%20Images.jpg[/IMG]

I don't think I can really say anyone guy is the GOAT, but IMO it would be between Montana, Brady, Brown, Rice and Walter.

Can't go wrong with that list IMO.

I think Jameis Winston is the GOAT

[QUOTE=corndog;10799405]This man.

[IMG]http://www.pittsburghsportsreport.com/PSR/sites/default/files/UP%20CLOSE_Johnny%2BUnitas_Getty%20Images.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

This +100000000

At the very least, hands down the greatest QB of all time. Revolutionized the QB position and played in an era where lineman couldn't use their hands to block, there was no roughing the passer, no facemask, no pass interference, no defensive holding, etc.

Truly remarkable what he was able to accomplish.

^^^ Is that Vinatieri? i heard he won a couple super bowls

[QUOTE=RedSoxFan28;10799238]No serious football fan doesn't think Tom Brady is the GOAT.

If you don't believe he is the GOAT, then at least admit to yourself that you're a biased Patriots hater. And if you still don't think he's the GOAT after that, then consider a sport that's easier for you to follow... I hear drone racing is a thing now.[/QUOTE]

Hubris.

Brady is in the conversation. There's no definitive criteria or empirical evidence that clarifies who the GOAT is.

[QUOTE=ejs23;10799181]No serious football fan, at least outside of Brady's family, thinks Tom Brady is the GOAT.

If you believe he is the GOAT, then at least admit to yourself that you're biased as a Patriots fan. And if you still think he's GOAT after that, then consider a sport that's easier for you to follow... I hear drone racing is a thing now.
[/QUOTE]
^^^^^^^
[QUOTE=88horsepower;10799646]Hubris.

Brady is in the conversation. There's no definitive criteria or empirical evidence that clarifies who the GOAT is.[/QUOTE]
I agree there isn't any definitive criteria(etc) for the GOAT, it's hard to compare across positions and generations, but there isn't a QB in NFL history I'd rather have than Brady.

Despite football being the epitome of a "team" sport, Tommy has led 6 of them to the superbowl, and each team was different, some were [B]vastly[/B] different.

This IMO is one of the main reasons I consider him the GOAT.

Even the most vocal of Brady haters would secretly love to have him on their team.. Dont deny it because WE ALL KNOW its true.

EDIT: Funny, Ive just noticed it in this thread, and several others around these boards since I joined.
Whenever there is a Brady (GOAT) thread, there's always haters that resort to insults, name calling, and the like.. Psycologists will tell you that when adults resort to that type of behavior in similar types of debates, and situations its because they know they're wrong.

My special word of the day is: LOGIC
Logic is definitely a "taught" skill..

[QUOTE=RedSoxFan28;10799785]
I agree there isn't any definitive criteria(etc) for the GOAT, it's hard to compare across positions and generations, but there isn't a QB in NFL history I'd rather have than Brady.[/QUOTE]

Then just say that you'd rather have him than anyone else. Nothing wrong with that. But when you say that no serious fan doesn't think he's the GOAT, that's a rather condescending statement. Many players, Brady included, are in the conversation. It's one that likely won't ever have a true answer.

That other guy is in the same boat as you. It's not a statement worth making on either side of the coin.

[QUOTE=ejs23;10799181]No serious football fan, at least outside of Brady's family, thinks Tom Brady is the GOAT.

If you believe he is the GOAT, then at least admit to yourself that you're biased as a Patriots fan. And if you still think he's GOAT after that, then consider a sport that's easier for you to follow... I hear drone racing is a thing now.

Brady is a great QB, though his reputation is forever tarnished by all the cheating NE has done. But even without the cheating it's laughable to consider him GOAT. It reminds me of people who think the most current pop star or actor is the greatest of all time in their respective fields.... because their fans don't know the history of all the greats that came before them.[/QUOTE]


wow... just, wow. this guy. ^
all the cheating...?
fans dont know the history?!

Is there a block function on these boards because Ive just found my guy.

Before I not ever speak to you, or have to torture myself by looking at anything you post, here: [url=http://yourteamcheats.com/]Your Team Cheats - The Definitive Guide to NFL Cheating[/url]

[QUOTE=88horsepower;10799954]Then just say that you'd rather have him than anyone else. Nothing wrong with that. But when you say that no serious fan doesn't think he's the GOAT, that's a rather condescending statement. Many players, Brady included, are in the conversation. It's one that likely won't ever have a true answer.

That other guy is in the same boat as you. It's not a statement worth making on either side of the coin.[/QUOTE]
I was mocking Ejs23's statement.

[QUOTE=Jameis1of1;10799051]


[B][COLOR="Red"]What makes Brady rank higher on your individual GOAT lists than the above players?[/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]

Because hes done whats hes done in the era of free agency. Each SB team was different, and the last 3 SB appearances, they were vastly different from one another.

[QUOTE=corndog;10799405]This man.

[IMG]http://www.pittsburghsportsreport.com/PSR/sites/default/files/UP%20CLOSE_Johnny%2BUnitas_Getty%20Images.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=cromartie3145;10799611]This +100000000

At the very least, hands down the greatest QB of all time. Revolutionized the QB position and played in an era where lineman couldn't use their hands to block, there was no roughing the passer, no facemask, no pass interference, no defensive holding, etc.

Truly remarkable what he was able to accomplish.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I like Unitas as well, one of my favorites

First to throw 30 TDs in a seasn and 30,000 passing yards in his career

[QUOTE=Bassplayah101;10800072]Because hes done whats hes done in the era of free agency. Each SB team was different, and the last 3 SB appearances, they were vastly different from one another.[/QUOTE]

I will always give TB his respect. Some of those receiving corps he won SB's with was average to say the least

This is actually the best written/most logical threads like this ever made...... and of course people want to whine and cry because poor Tom is not considered the greatest by everyone. Look at the evidence given by the original poster. He has some reasons and criteria that actually make a lot of sense.

Brady is not a player who has had a career without failure. Blowing a 3 TD lead in Indy when the Colts won in 06 was a collapse. If Brady is responsible for wins, he is responsible for that loss. Tom was able to score just 14 points in the Giants undefeated Super Bowl with at worst the second best receiver ever, and Welker was an all pro WR that year too..... 14 points are on Brady, they score 35 in the regular season... that is his loss if you want to give him "credit" for the Rams.

I mean the facts are facts; his teams have sh*t the bed numerous times over the years; as have every single player's teams in NFL history. That is the point of a thread like this. In a vacuum Brady is not a better QB than Rodgers, his physical tools and athletic ability don't match up. Does that mean Rodgers is better, not necessarily but it's just a point of discussion.

There are big deficiencies for every QB when you talk about the GOAT. Montana was surrounded by ridiculous talent, I mean crazy good talent. For QB's, he probably has the least negatives in a conversation like this. Brady although winning the SB's that he did early on... didn't become the superstar that he is today until 06-present when you look at the stats. He emerged from a game manager in 00-05 into an epic passing machine from roughly 06-present. In that latter span he lost an AFC championship game by pissing away a huge halftime lead in 06; he lost two super bowls to the Giants in which he was unable to figure out how to score more than 14 points against a 10-6 Giants team (keep in mind the NE team was the best offense in NFL history). If you want to praise Brady and give him credit for the Rams, Eagles, and Panthers SB's... you must give him blame for the 06 Indy game, both Giants SB's.. plus other shortcomings when the Patriots were expected to win and did not. You can't have it both ways

So in reality, picking a QB for this type of thing is very difficult due to the circumstances of how players are judged. Jerry Rice may seem like a logical choice due to his all pro selections and super crazy stat lines..... but if you step back and look... He was thrown to by an All-Pro QB 17 seasons of the 20 that he played. All 3 of his QB's over that time won MVP's. Montana was a three time all pro and MVP, Young was a three time all pro and MVP, and Gannon was a two time all Pro and MVP. So, although Rice was really good, he was always around MVP talent at the position.

So, when you look at the greatest of the great, really the GOAT in my mind is a simple question. Jim Brown leaves little to no doubt that he is the greatest player of all time. In 9 years he led the league in rushing 8 times and was an 8 time first team all pro.... he won 3 MVPs... and for you "team guys" he won a championship. Also; KEEP IN MIND he did all of this when teams ran the ball all the time. He lined up in the rushing era and was the best. That is my opinion...... for what it's worth

[QUOTE=MFaulkCollector;10800206]So, when you look at the greatest of the great, really the GOAT in my mind is a simple question. Jim Brown leaves little to no doubt that he is the greatest player of all time. In 9 years he led the league in rushing 8 times and was an 8 time first team all pro.... he won 3 MVPs... and for you "team guys" he won a championship. Also; KEEP IN MIND he did all of this when teams ran the ball all the time. He lined up in the rushing era and was the best. That is my opinion...... for what it's worth[/QUOTE]

But how was he able to do all that?
A fantastic offensive line, and great blocking.

The first time Tom was given an all-pro, and one of the best receivers in the last 20 years in Randy Moss, he went and broke the TD record.

Brady has done far more with far less around him, and that's an actual fact.


Good post, and valid points, BTW.

[QUOTE=MFaulkCollector;10800206]Brady is not a player who has had a career without failure. Blowing a 3 TD lead in Indy when the Colts won in 06 was a collapse. [B]If Brady is responsible for wins, he is responsible for that loss.[/B] Tom was able to score just 14 points in the Giants undefeated Super Bowl with at worst the second best receiver ever, and Welker was an all pro WR that year too..... 14 points are on Brady, they score 35 in the regular season... that is his loss if you want to give him "credit" for the Rams.[/QUOTE]


OP is right as this is a team sport, but the bold part is true because in this "team" sport, the QBs get the glory when they win and the blame when they lose. Thats just the way it is.

[QUOTE=Bassplayah101;10800259]But how was he able to do all that?
A fantastic offensive line, and great blocking.

The first time Tom was given an all-pro, and one of the best receivers in the last 20 years in Randy Moss, he went and broke the TD record.

Brady has done far more with far less around him, and that's an actual fact.


Good post, and valid points, BTW.[/QUOTE]


You are certainly correct.... nobody can do it all by themselves... and that makes a topic like this very interesting when people make valid points and strong arguments. I really enjoy reading good posts with solid logic and evidence. I just think the deck is stacked against a QB in this type of conversation... mainly because of the "team" concept argument and the fact the the best QB's to ever play the game are nowhere near the athletes of other major positions. It's just a tough argument from many aspects

Different Era's
 

In today's NFL, it's all about attempting to bring as much PARITY as possible. Many of the great QB's of the previous decades didn't have to lose multiple key players to other teams because winners want to be paid. Brady has been winning with a complete overhaul to the Patriots. Stats are important but give me the guy who can drop a dime on a TE sprinting 30 yards downfield being double covered on a 4th and long with just seconds left in the game. When it comes down to being able LEAD a team as well as consistency, Brady wears the CROWN.

[QUOTE=Stifle;10800730]In today's NFL, it's all about attempting to bring as much PARITY as possible. Many of the great QB's of the previous decades didn't have to lose multiple key players to other teams because winners want to be paid. Brady has been winning with a complete overhaul to the Patriots. Stats are important but give me the guy who can drop a dime on a TE sprinting 30 yards downfield being double covered on a 4th and long with just seconds left in the game. When it comes down to being able LEAD a team as well as consistency, Brady wears the CROWN.[/QUOTE]

Peyton Manning was the First team All Pro QB 8 times and a 5 Time MVP during the dominant years of Brady..... that seems pretty consistent to me

To throw 500 plus TD's and win 200 games I would imagine he had a few fourth quarter comebacks as well; maybe even a few clutch 4th down conversions late in games. I feel like Manning may have been a pretty good leader as well.

If the only thing that matters each year is the 4 possible playoff games then Brady is fine.... but Manning is good enough when the chips are down; he makes sound decisions. I will take the 8 All Pro Teams, 5 MVPS, 2 Super Bowls to the 2 All Pro Teams, 2 MVPs, and 4 Super Bowls when you look at everything in the big picture.

Especially when you look at the stats and see Brady only had 6 years total in his career that he was not better than 2:1 TD;INT Ratio.... yet 3 of those years were early SB winning years...... His best 8 statistical years were after those 3 rings when he was able to get just one more

[QUOTE=the mesiah;10799131]I was hoping/waiting for the Lawrence Taylor synopsis on why he was included in the conversation for voting, that must have been for me to prob be the only vote ,:)![/QUOTE]

LT was a bad, bad, bad man. He deserves to be in consideration.

[QUOTE=ejs23;10799181]No serious football fan, at least outside of Brady's family, thinks Tom Brady is the GOAT.

If you believe he is the GOAT, then at least admit to yourself that you're biased as a Patriots fan. And if you still think he's GOAT after that, then consider a sport that's easier for you to follow... I hear drone racing is a thing now.

Brady is a great QB, though his reputation is forever tarnished by all the cheating NE has done. But even without the cheating it's laughable to consider him GOAT. It reminds me of people who think the most current pop star or actor is the greatest of all time in their respective fields.... because their fans don't know the history of all the greats that came before them.[/QUOTE]

Wow, that's a bit harsh. I do understand your overall point, especially as I believe most casual fans and even a lot of dedicated current fans have literally no idea who a guy like Otto Graham even was ... but ... Brady is in the conversation at least and that's nothing to mock or sneeze at imho.

[QUOTE=RogerGodahell;10799183]Otto Graham played in the pre superbowl era when there were only like 12 teams and there were no playoffs just a championship game. What he did was still amazing but Brady has been to 10 afc championships and 6 super bowls with a playoff system. Back then the 2 teams with the best record just played a championship game. If that was still the case Brady would have already been in like i dont even know how many championships, a lot. Manning would have more appearances as well.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure you're right about that. I highly doubt Brady has led the Patriots to 10 "best records" in the AFC ... he may have, I don't know, but I doubt it ... and even if he did, it wasn't 10 years in a row like Otto.

[QUOTE=moose84;10799243]Never really hear that many people say he is the NFL GOAT, usually the QB GOAT

to me the NFL GOAT is Mr. Rice

EDIT: And QB GOAT is probably Montana[/QUOTE]

I agree that if I had to name a GOAT it would be Jerry Rice ... to me he is like the Wayne Gretzky of the NFL and that's saying a lot.

[QUOTE=Chaddie84;10799560]I think Jameis Winston is the GOAT[/QUOTE]

Hahahaha ... maybe one day :flex:

He is the GOAT NCAA freshman QB without a doubt though, and that's a pretty awesome thing ...

[QUOTE=Bassplayah101;10799951]Despite football being the epitome of a "team" sport, Tommy has led 6 of them to the superbowl, and each team was different, some were [B]vastly[/B] different.

This IMO is one of the main reasons I consider him the GOAT.

Even the most vocal of Brady haters would secretly love to have him on their team.. Dont deny it because WE ALL KNOW its true.

EDIT: Funny, Ive just noticed it in this thread, and several others around these boards since I joined.
Whenever there is a Brady (GOAT) thread, there's always haters that resort to insults, name calling, and the like.. Psycologists will tell you that when adults resort to that type of behavior in similar types of debates, and situations its because they know they're wrong.

My special word of the day is: LOGIC
Logic is definitely a "taught" skill..[/QUOTE]

I agree with you 100% about adults that slip out and resort to childishness ... it is generally because they know they're wrong and don't have truth on their side to back them up ... though I imagine sometimes it's just because they're a**ho*es :D

However, I disagree that everyone would want Brady on their team ... I doubt there is a 49'er fan alive that would rather have Brady over Montana in a Super Bowl game.

[QUOTE=MFaulkCollector;10800814]Peyton Manning was the First team All Pro QB 8 times and a 5 Time MVP during the dominant years of Brady..... that seems pretty consistent to me

To throw 500 plus TD's and win 200 games I would imagine he had a few fourth quarter comebacks as well; maybe even a few clutch 4th down conversions late in games. I feel like Manning may have been a pretty good leader as well.

If the only thing that matters each year is the 4 possible playoff games then Brady is fine.... but Manning is good enough when the chips are down; he makes sound decisions. I will take the 8 All Pro Teams, 5 MVPS, 2 Super Bowls to the 2 All Pro Teams, 2 MVPs, and 4 Super Bowls when you look at everything in the big picture.

Especially when you look at the stats and see Brady only had 6 years total in his career that he was not better than 2:1 TD;INT Ratio.... yet 3 of those years were early SB winning years...... His best 8 statistical years were after those 3 rings when he was able to get just one more[/QUOTE]

The above is a very valid post with some very hard to refute stats ... and it goes to my point of "rings" not being a good measure of whether a player is an individually great player. During Brady's EIGHT best years he only won one ring ... outside of those years he won three ... that says a lot.

People need to realize that players do NOT win rings ... teams do. Tom Brady, Joe Montana, etc., never won a ring ... the Patriots and 49'ers teams won rings, and they happened to be members of those teams.

I mean, Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson have rings and Dan Marino and Dan Fouts do not ... everyone should really think about that.

[QUOTE=MFaulkCollector;10800206]This is actually the best written/most logical threads like this ever made......[/quote]

Thank you :)

[quote]and of course people want to whine and cry because poor Tom is not considered the greatest by everyone. Look at the evidence given by the original poster. He has some reasons and criteria that actually make a lot of sense.

Brady is not a player who has had a career without failure. Blowing a 3 TD lead in Indy when the Colts won in 06 was a collapse. If Brady is responsible for wins, he is responsible for that loss. Tom was able to score just 14 points in the Giants undefeated Super Bowl with at worst the second best receiver ever, and Welker was an all pro WR that year too..... 14 points are on Brady, they score 35 in the regular season... that is his loss if you want to give him "credit" for the Rams.[/quote]

That is a very valid point and is one of the reasons I believe many people will always consider Montana better than Brady ... because he never lost the big game. Now, I'm not saying that is why I believe Montana was better, but it is a valid point for many.

[quote]I mean the facts are facts; his teams have sh*t the bed numerous times over the years; as have every single player's teams in NFL history. That is the point of a thread like this. In a vacuum Brady is not a better QB than Rodgers, his physical tools and athletic ability don't match up. Does that mean Rodgers is better, not necessarily but it's just a point of discussion.[/quote]

Another very good point. I always like to think what player would be best if his lineman and receivers were garbage ... and in such a situation I certainly couldn't rank Brady ahead of a guy like Rodgers, Elway, etc.,.

[quote]There are big deficiencies for every QB when you talk about the GOAT. Montana was surrounded by ridiculous talent, I mean crazy good talent. For QB's, he probably has the least negatives in a conversation like this. Brady although winning the SB's that he did early on... didn't become the superstar that he is today until 06-present when you look at the stats. He emerged from a game manager in 00-05 into an epic passing machine from roughly 06-present. In that latter span he lost an AFC championship game by pissing away a huge halftime lead in 06; he lost two super bowls to the Giants in which he was unable to figure out how to score more than 14 points against a 10-6 Giants team (keep in mind the NE team was the best offense in NFL history). If you want to praise Brady and give him credit for the Rams, Eagles, and Panthers SB's... you must give him blame for the 06 Indy game, both Giants SB's.. plus other shortcomings when the Patriots were expected to win and did not. You can't have it both ways[/quote]

I agree.

[quote]So in reality, picking a QB for this type of thing is very difficult due to the circumstances of how players are judged. Jerry Rice may seem like a logical choice due to his all pro selections and super crazy stat lines..... but if you step back and look... He was thrown to by an All-Pro QB 17 seasons of the 20 that he played. All 3 of his QB's over that time won MVP's. Montana was a three time all pro and MVP, Young was a three time all pro and MVP, and Gannon was a two time all Pro and MVP. So, although Rice was really good, he was always around MVP talent at the position.[/quote]

I would also agree with this, to a point ...

[quote]So, when you look at the greatest of the great, really the GOAT in my mind is a simple question. Jim Brown leaves little to no doubt that he is the greatest player of all time. In 9 years he led the league in rushing 8 times and was an 8 time first team all pro.... he won 3 MVPs... and for you "team guys" he won a championship. Also; KEEP IN MIND he did all of this when teams ran the ball all the time. He lined up in the rushing era and was the best. That is my opinion...... for what it's worth[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't really argue with you as there is a great case that can be made for Jim Brown. I would ask why you rank him ahead of another Brown great, Otto Graham, though?

Also ... it sounds like you absolutely rank players based on individual greatness rather than "team success" which I respect and personally agree with. That said ... there is one guy that I didn't even put on the list of poll choices that I probably should have ... BARRY SANDERS. Barry is the only player I ever watched play that literally made me believe he could gain 1,000 yards with 5 grocery store clerks blocking for him, no FB at all and a QB who couldn't make a Pro Bowl team if there was only two other QB's in the league.

Barry literally took my breath away and was the closest thing I've ever seen to a "one man offense" for what it's worth.

By the way exactly 50 votes have been cast so far, and 42% feel Brady is the GOAT while 58% do not ... however to the previous posters comment about people not knowing the history of the game and being impressed with the "latest great" rather than the "old greats" ... Jim Brown and Otto Graham have COMBINED to receive just 4 votes which is sort of absurd. Again, everyone ... Graham led his team to 10 title games in 10 years and won 7 championships ... that is mind boggling :eek:... and Jim Brown absolutely dominated the league and was a 1st team all-pro nearly every season he played! :cool:

Hahahhahahahhhahhahahhhhhahahhahahhaahhahhhhhhahahahahahahahuahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahhaahhaahhahh

Tom Brady is great..... No doubt about it. But as far as the GOAT....? He's not even the greatest [B][I]QB[/I][/B] of all time. He may not even be the best QB of his era....

///////////////////////////

[QUOTE=corndog;10799405]This man.

[IMG]http://www.pittsburghsportsreport.com/PSR/sites/default/files/UP%20CLOSE_Johnny%2BUnitas_Getty%20Images.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]




[QUOTE=cromartie3145;10799611]This +100000000

At the very least, hands down the greatest QB of all time. Revolutionized the QB position and played in an era where lineman couldn't use their hands to block, there was no roughing the passer, no facemask, no pass interference, no defensive holding, etc.

Truly remarkable what he was able to accomplish.[/QUOTE]

This guy, and shame to the OP for not including him. I guess he's a bit wet between the ears still.

Out of all the players listed I have never seen a guy with as much individual and team success as Brady across multiple systems over his career. The offensive scheme has been revamped at least 3 times from the time Brady started to the point it is today. He has excelled in all of them.

team has been caught numerous times cheating......asterick him.......

[QUOTE=iplumb1963;10801431]team has been caught numerous times cheating......asterick him.......[/QUOTE]

Why cant you spell asterisks?

I love that the OP put Tim, kinda sums up this entire site and their view to the Patriots

Tom Brady is by far my favorite QB so let's get that out of the way. Here is something though that I find interesting, Peyton Manning went to four Super Bowls with four different head coaches (Kubiak, Fox, Dungy, and Caldwell). Maybe that isn't worth mentioning but I think it is. Four systems, four different mentalities, and still he found success. I'm not saying this makes Peyton the greatest ever, what I am getting at is it's so hard to compare players since every player plays in different circumstances. Would Brady find success under four different head coaches? Would Peyton thrive in the controlling environment Belichick has? How would Joe Montana do against today's defenses? We will never know, hence, there will never be a consensus greatest ever.

[QUOTE=Bassplayah101;10800259]But how was he able to do all that?
A fantastic offensive line, and great blocking.

The first time Tom was given an all-pro, and one of the best receivers in the last 20 years in Randy Moss, he went and broke the TD record.

Brady has done far more with far less around him, and that's an actual fact.


Good post, and valid points, BTW.[/QUOTE]

Brady hasn't done more with less. His career playoff passer rating is 88.0, 15th all time behind Aikman, Flacco, Eli, Romo, Mark Sanchez, etc. For all the hate Patriots fans throw at Peyton choking in the playoffs, his rating is 87.4, basically the same as Brady. If Manning is a choker, then so is Brady and who won last year?

My goat is Jerry Rice. The qb/wr argument is like the chicken and egg. Rice played with all pro qbs, but who benefitted? Having watched the 49ers play live many times, I believe it is Montana and Young. Rice was almost always open. Without Rice, Montana has 2 SBs and I doubt Young is ever an AP. Also those 88-95 49ers teams had a ton of talent. Jim Brown would be the only other guy close to Rice.

[QUOTE=rats60;10801502]Brady hasn't done more with less. His career playoff passer rating is 88.0, 15th all time behind Aikman, Flacco, Eli, Romo, Mark Sanchez, etc. For all the hate Patriots fans throw at Peyton choking in the playoffs, his rating is 87.4, basically the same as Brady. If Manning is a choker, then so is Brady and who won last year?

My goat is Jerry Rice. The qb/wr argument is like the chicken and egg. Rice played with all pro qbs, but who benefitted? Having watched the 49ers play live many times, I believe it is Montana and Young. Rice was almost always open. Without Rice, Montana has 2 SBs and I doubt Young is ever an AP. Also those 88-95 49ers teams had a ton of talent. Jim Brown would be the only other guy close to Rice.[/QUOTE]

You have no problem with Rice admitting he cheated?

And I am not even trying to get into this debate, but if you think Rice is the best ever, are you okay with the cheating?

[QUOTE=IamRalpho;10801516]You have no problem with Rice admitting he cheated?

And I am not even trying to get into this debate, but if you think Rice is the best ever, are you okay with the cheating?[/QUOTE]

I missed where the NFL suspended him, fined the 49ers and took 1st round draft picks from the 49ers. Rice denies it just like Peyton denies he took HGH. Until the NFL or someone besides Patriots fans find something on either I won't call them cheaters. You are still really desperate though. Keep throwing mud, maybe one day it may stick.

[QUOTE=rats60;10801613]I missed where the NFL suspended him, fined the 49ers and took 1st round draft picks from the 49ers. Rice denies it just like Peyton denies he took HGH. Until the NFL or someone besides Patriots fans find something on either I won't call them cheaters. You are still really desperate though. Keep throwing mud, maybe one day it may stick.[/QUOTE]

Jerry Rice admitted he cheated, just because he wasnt suspended doesnt mean he didnt do it, are you kidding me right now? You talk about being a homer you totally avoided the truth and insulted me.

Was Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens ever suspended? Are they in the Hall of Fame?

I think a 10 year old might use the excuse "So what if I stole, I wasnt arrested!"

[url=http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25064001/cris-carter-if-jerry-rice-used-stickum-he-was-cheating]Cris Carter: If Jerry Rice used stickum, he cheated - CBSSports.com[/url]

[QUOTE=IamRalpho;10801621]Jerry Rice admitted he cheated, just because he wasnt suspended doesnt mean he didnt do it, are you kidding me right now? You talk about being a homer you totally avoided the truth and insulted me.

Was Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens ever suspended? Are they in the Hall of Fame?

I think a 10 year old might use the excuse "So what if I stole, I wasnt arrested!"

[url=http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25064001/cris-carter-if-jerry-rice-used-stickum-he-was-cheating]Cris Carter: If Jerry Rice used stickum, he cheated - CBSSports.com[/url][/QUOTE]

Directly from the NFL rulebook "players may wear gloves with a tackified surface if such tacky substance does not adhere to the football or otherwise cause handling problems for players."

Jerry Rice says he did not cheat. You say he did, it is upon you to prove it. How did he violate this rule? Do you have a football from a 49ers game with substance on it. Do you have any players or referees saying this was a problem during 49er games? What is your proof because your first statement is a lie.

[QUOTE=rats60;10801686]Directly from the NFL rulebook "players may wear gloves with a tackified surface if such tacky substance does not adhere to the football or otherwise cause handling problems for players."

Jerry Rice says he did not cheat. You say he did, it is upon you to prove it. How did he violate this rule? Do you have a football from a 49ers game with substance on it. Do you have any players or referees saying this was a problem during 49er games? What is your proof because your first statement is a lie.[/QUOTE]
When was the rule added to the rulebook?



" “I know this might be a little illegal, guys, but you put a little spray, a little stickum on them, to make sure that texture is a little sticky,” Rice said, laughing.

It wasn’t a little illegal, it was a lot illegal. As explained in the ESPN feature, gloves were introduced to football after the NFL decided to outlaw the stuff that guys like Fred Biletnikoff and Lester Hayes (pictured) would spread copiously on their hands, and elsewhere. Rice admitted in the feature that he enhanced the surface of gloves approved for use in the NFL with a substance that would make it easier to catch the ball. "



Rice admitted to cheating, yet you still say he didn't.

Jerry Rice says he used stickem, what more proof is needed?

[QUOTE=rats60;10801686]Directly from the NFL rulebook "players may wear gloves with a tackified surface if such tacky substance does not adhere to the football or otherwise cause handling problems for players."

Jerry Rice says he did not cheat. You say he did, it is upon you to prove it. How did he violate this rule? Do you have a football from a 49ers game with substance on it. Do you have any players or referees saying this was a problem during 49er games? What is your proof because your first statement is a lie.[/QUOTE]

Did you watch the video at the bottom of the link he sent? It is a video of Rice saying he put stickum on...what more proof do you need?

[QUOTE=mainelobster;10801720]Did you watch the video at the bottom of the link he sent? It is a video of Rice saying he put stickum on...what more proof do you need?[/QUOTE]

Well that's different...it was a different time ya know. Back when dirty hits and whatever else you could get away with were just part of the game. Everything is fair in war or something like that ...but not anymore, but just this one time and then we can go back to the way it was.

my bad ASTERISK HIS ASS ..........

Not sure how you can say any one player is the greatest player in NFL history. With all the different positions, really hard for me to say.
IMO Brady is the best QB of all time yes.
His individual stats as well as his post season winning record and SB rings.

However to me the gap between jerry rice and the second best WR of all time is bigger then the gap between Brady and Montana by far.

So to me jerry rice is closer to the GOAT then Brady is.
For the simple fact I think he is just better then the next best at his position.

[QUOTE=MFaulkCollector;10800206]If you want to praise Brady and give him credit for the Rams, Eagles, and Panthers SB's... you must give him blame for the 06 Indy game, both Giants SB's.. plus other shortcomings when the Patriots were expected to win and did not. You can't have it both ways

[/QUOTE]

Personally I think the SB and AFC Championship losses are not nearly the negatives on Brady's resume that people make them out to be. Would it be better if he had won those games? Sure. But people act like losing in the SB means it was a bad season for Brady.

You have to blame him for losing twice to the Giants in the Super Bowl. But you also need to give him credit for that season, as you have to play great to get there in the first place.

People act like Brady losing a SB is a bigger negative than not making the playoffs, which is absurd. Sure, he's had bad games along the way like everyone but if your team is in the AFC Championship, your QB probably had a pretty good season.

And that's why him playing in 10 AFC Championship games is just a ridiculous stat.

[QUOTE=rats60;10801686]Directly from the NFL rulebook "players may wear gloves with a tackified surface if such tacky substance does not adhere to the football or otherwise cause handling problems for players."

Jerry Rice says he did not cheat. You say he did, it is upon you to prove it. How did he violate this rule? Do you have a football from a 49ers game with substance on it. Do you have any players or referees saying this was a problem during 49er games? What is your proof because your first statement is a lie.[/QUOTE]

Jerry Rice himself said it. Your GOAT.

Defend that.

[img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KrN1wPIHObM/VNY59oedtvI/AAAAAAAAtXw/hrQ5oPG5Qr0/s1600/jerry%2Brice%2Bstickum%2Btweet.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=IamRalpho;10801953]Jerry Rice himself said it. Your GOAT.

Defend that.

[img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KrN1wPIHObM/VNY59oedtvI/AAAAAAAAtXw/hrQ5oPG5Qr0/s1600/jerry%2Brice%2Bstickum%2Btweet.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

No where did Rice say he cheated. You are incorrectly interpreting what he said. That is why I posted the rule where it says that players could apply substances on their gloves as long as it didn't adhere to the ball. In fact Rice said exactly the opposite of what you are claiming. Rice said he didn't cheat.

This rule was in acted because players like Fred Biletnikoff and Lester Hayes were using so much stickum that it was getting on the balls and causing problems. The NFL clearly wrote the rule to allow just what Jerry Rice said he did and as he also said, it was common place among players. It was common place because it was perfectly legal. All you have to do is read the rulebook.

[QUOTE=rats60;10802893]No where did Rice say he cheated. You are incorrectly interpreting what he said. That is why I posted the rule where it says that players could apply substances on their gloves as long as it didn't adhere to the ball. In fact Rice said exactly the opposite of what you are claiming. Rice said he didn't cheat.

This rule was in acted because players like Fred Biletnikoff and Lester Hayes were using so much stickum that it was getting on the balls and causing problems. The NFL clearly wrote the rule to allow just what Jerry Rice said he did and as he also said, it was common place among players. It was common place because it was perfectly legal. All you have to do is read the rulebook.[/QUOTE]
You can't be serious.
Stickum banned in 1981.
Rice played 1985-2004.
Rice himself said it was a little illegal.




I've never had/used stickum, but if it's anything like pine tar wouldn't it leave some on the ball?

[QUOTE=rats60;10802893]No where did Rice say he cheated. You are incorrectly interpreting what he said. That is why I posted the rule where it says that players could apply substances on their gloves as long as it didn't adhere to the ball. In fact Rice said exactly the opposite of what you are claiming. Rice said he didn't cheat.

This rule was in acted because players like Fred Biletnikoff and Lester Hayes were using so much stickum that it was getting on the balls and causing problems. The NFL clearly wrote the rule to allow just what Jerry Rice said he did and as he also said, it was common place among players. It was common place because it was perfectly legal. All you have to do is read the rulebook.[/QUOTE]

Congrats on crowning yourself as the king of misinterpretation, and double standards.
I'm floored at the level of persistence you have shown in order to backup your ignorance.
I bet if it was anyone on the Patriots used it, you would be looking for the match to light the cross, and your double standards literally make my head hurt.

Stickum provides an advantage, plain and simple. Banned in 1981, and Rice used it for YEARS after it was banned.

Those are the facts..

Why isn't Mean Joe Greene on the list? If Ronnie Lott and LT are on the list, how do you omit the man (and Chuck Noll) who turned a terrible, terrible franchise into a 4x SB winning one? He changed the mindset and physicality and was an absolute BEAST on the field. You can have Butkus, Lott, LT and Nitschke - just give me Mean Joe! :)

(not meant with ANY disrespect to those 3 guys because they are absolute legends and I'm a Steelers homer)

[QUOTE=rats60;10802893]No where did Rice say he cheated. You are incorrectly interpreting what he said. That is why I posted the rule where it says that players could apply substances on their gloves as long as it didn't adhere to the ball. In fact Rice said exactly the opposite of what you are claiming. Rice said he didn't cheat.

This rule was in acted because players like Fred Biletnikoff and Lester Hayes were using so much stickum that it was getting on the balls and causing problems. The NFL clearly wrote the rule to allow just what Jerry Rice said he did and as he also said, it was common place among players. It was common place because it was perfectly legal. All you have to do is read the rulebook.[/QUOTE]


Mind Blown

[QUOTE=RogerGodahell;10803558]Mind Blown[/QUOTE]

X 2, I am officially out of this conversation

Manning is GOAT at least as far as QB goes. 1st team all pro 8x in the Favre Marino Brady Rodgers Rivers era is extremely impressive.

I give almost half of Bradys credit to the coach.

Keep in mind i dont even like Peyton Manning but if i were a GM or owner i know no matter who the coach is or how the roster looks that Peyton will walk us into the playoffs.

Brady hasnt won without belichick as his coach. Even Cassell won a lot with Belichick when Brady was hurt. Wheras Manning won with Caldwell!!

[QUOTE=jasonm2121;10803611]X 2, I am officially out of this conversation[/QUOTE]

Myself as well, the haters can have their day im done with this subject.

[QUOTE=hoopster3977;10801277]This guy, and shame to the OP for not including him. I guess he's a bit wet between the ears still.[/QUOTE]

[B]I included Otto Graham who played long before Unitas, so, no, I am not "wet behind the ears". However, you can't have more than 10 poll options so I had to make some cuts and I didn't think it was fair to not list some defensive players ... honestly I'm sad I didn't get to list my man Barry Sanders or at least one offensive lineman.

I suppose I should have chosen between LT and Lott and then had an "other" option, but it is what it is.[/B]

[QUOTE=IamRalpho;10801441]I love that the OP put Tim, kinda sums up this entire site and their view to the Patriots[/QUOTE]

[B]That was just a typo ... the "i" is right next to the "o". I am not a Brady hater and nothing I have said in this thread would disprove that fact. I consider Brady in the GOAT conversation.[/B]

[QUOTE=Brobocop;10801446]Tom Brady is by far my favorite QB so let's get that out of the way. Here is something though that I find interesting, Peyton Manning went to four Super Bowls with four different head coaches (Kubiak, Fox, Dungy, and Caldwell). Maybe that isn't worth mentioning but I think it is. Four systems, four different mentalities, and still he found success. I'm not saying this makes Peyton the greatest ever, what I am getting at is it's so hard to compare players since every player plays in different circumstances. Would Brady find success under four different head coaches? Would Peyton thrive in the controlling environment Belichick has? How would Joe Montana do against today's defenses? We will never know, hence, there will never be a consensus greatest ever.[/QUOTE]

[B]I agree with the above 100%[/B]

[QUOTE=rats60;10801502]Brady hasn't done more with less. His career playoff passer rating is 88.0, 15th all time behind Aikman, Flacco, Eli, Romo, Mark Sanchez, etc. For all the hate Patriots fans throw at Peyton choking in the playoffs, his rating is 87.4, basically the same as Brady. If Manning is a choker, then so is Brady and who won last year?[/quote]

[B]Very, very good point. Manning also has a winning record against Brady in the playoffs ...[/B]

[quote]My goat is Jerry Rice. The qb/wr argument is like the chicken and egg. Rice played with all pro qbs, but who benefitted? Having watched the 49ers play live many times, I believe it is Montana and Young. Rice was almost always open. Without Rice, Montana has 2 SBs and I doubt Young is ever an AP. Also those 88-95 49ers teams had a ton of talent. Jim Brown would be the only other guy close to Rice.[/QUOTE]

[B]I also choose Rice simply because his career was otherworldly ... however ... Barry Sanders is the player I feel did the most with the least ... that guy was just remarkable.[/B]

[QUOTE=Mikegioseffi;10801803]Not sure how you can say any one player is the greatest player in NFL history. With all the different positions, really hard for me to say.
IMO Brady is the best QB of all time yes.
His individual stats as well as his post season winning record and SB rings.

However to me the gap between jerry rice and the second best WR of all time is bigger then the gap between Brady and Montana by far.

So to me jerry rice is closer to the GOAT then Brady is.
For the simple fact I think he is just better then the next best at his position.[/QUOTE]

[B]Valid point.[/B]

[QUOTE=21Pittsburgh58;10803237]Why isn't Mean Joe Greene on the list? If Ronnie Lott and LT are on the list, how do you omit the man (and Chuck Noll) who turned a terrible, terrible franchise into a 4x SB winning one? He changed the mindset and physicality and was an absolute BEAST on the field. You can have Butkus, Lott, LT and Nitschke - just give me Mean Joe! :)

(not meant with ANY disrespect to those 3 guys because they are absolute legends and I'm a Steelers homer)[/QUOTE]

[B]I could only include 10 poll options ... I probably should have had an "other" category though ...[/B]

[QUOTE=phreak9;10803900]Manning is GOAT at least as far as QB goes. 1st team all pro 8x in the Favre Marino Brady Rodgers Rivers era is extremely impressive.

I give almost half of Bradys credit to the coach.

Keep in mind i dont even like Peyton Manning but if i were a GM or owner i know no matter who the coach is or how the roster looks that Peyton will walk us into the playoffs.

Brady hasnt won without belichick as his coach. Even Cassell won a lot with Belichick when Brady was hurt. Wheras Manning won with Caldwell!![/QUOTE]
[B]
These are valid points that actually make a lot of sense to me. Continuity cannot be underestimated and the fact that Brady won all his games with the genius that is Belichick while Manning went to the SuperBowl with FOUR different coaches really tilts things towards Manning for many people, and perhaps rightly so.

Now ... as for Jerry Rice and "cheating" ... I could care the less if he used stickum and also could care the less if Brady deflated balls. To be honest, I don't even care that Bonds or Clemens were juicing in the MLB as all four of those guys were legends regardless. I don't believe in the "competitive advantage" nonsense as even modern exercise equipment, doctors, non-banned substances, etc., give modern players a massive "competitive advantage" over players that played in previous eras, such as Unitas in the NFL, Ruth in MLB, Chamberlain in the NBA and Howe in the NHL.[/B]

[QUOTE=phreak9;10803900]Manning is GOAT at least as far as QB goes. 1st team all pro 8x in the Favre Marino Brady Rodgers Rivers era is extremely impressive.

I give almost half of Bradys credit to the coach.

Keep in mind i dont even like Peyton Manning but if i were a GM or owner i know no matter who the coach is or how the roster looks that Peyton will walk us into the playoffs.

Brady hasnt won without belichick as his coach. Even Cassell won a lot with Belichick when Brady was hurt. Wheras Manning won with Caldwell!![/QUOTE]

And why if Peyton was so great did he go thru 4 coaches? Peyton was great don't get me wrong but with an all-pro QB & winning & as much credit is given to Peyton for being a coach/player type guy & how great he was at changing up the plays etc.... then why has he only won 2 SB's & how many playoff losses does he have? Do you think if BB & Brady weren't winning they wouldn't have switched up the coach & how many coaches moved on because of the Pat's winning? How many OC's has Brady had? He was given a decent team with 1 All-Pro WR (Moss) & he went undefeated in the regular season & went to the SB again! Where was Manning? At home because he lost again. Peyton hasn't been impressing anyone really over the past 2 years with that arm. He also has had all-pro talent around him for most of his career. Brock just got a huge contract from playing a couple games with that team. Marvin Harrison/Reggie Wayne/Dallas Clark/Edge were pretty nice offensive weapons to have around. Now onto your Caldwell crack,guess what.....his 1st year in Detroit he went 11-5 and to the playoffs & last year he just missed them with a couple bad calls IMO and starting the season off with the OC trying to be to tricky and as soon as the switch happened 6-2. Not saying I see enough to be sold on Caldwell yet but if it's Manning's credit they won the SB and not the Coach or Combo there of then Manning doesn't get a pass from losing & getting coaches fired.

I don't get the Manning and 4 coaches/ 4 Super Bowls, wasn't everything on offense pretty much the same except for the past year with Kubiak? And even than didn't they go from under center to shotgun for Manning? (I know Manning's age was catching up to him and his foot were main reasons)

What I find funny is that Peyton hasn't been crucified for the HGH crap like Brady has over deflategate. No one has yet to have anything on Brady except that Wells report which has been proven to be a fictional story I don't want to even get into it. To many have made their judgements on Brady over public perception rather than reading actual facts. Mannings little HGH just happen to be swept under the rug because he retired. No one finds it funny he came back from that injury to have 1 of his best if not best year ever to then over the next 2 years throw wobbly ducks all over the place? Jus' sayin' I would like the evidence on Brady other than the Wells report and no one can produce anything except stuff that debunks everything in the Wells report.

[QUOTE=twisty571;10804217]What I find funny is that Peyton hasn't been crucified for the HGH crap like Brady has over deflategate. No one has yet to have anything on Brady except that Wells report which has been proven to be a fictional story I don't want to even get into it. [B]To many have made their judgements on Brady over public perception rather than reading actual facts.[/B] Mannings little HGH just happen to be swept under the rug because he retired. No one finds it funny he came back from that injury to have 1 of his best if not best year ever to then over the next 2 years throw wobbly ducks all over the place? Jus' sayin' I would like the evidence on Brady other than the Wells report and no one can produce anything except stuff that debunks everything in the Wells report.[/QUOTE]

That's the only thing the NFL did "well" during deflategate. Leak the right info to sway the public opinion before facts came out.

Uncle Rico is the GOAT!!

[QUOTE=RedSoxFan28;10804234]That's the only thing the NFL did "well" during deflategate. Leak the right info to sway the public opinion before facts came out.[/QUOTE]

Yep & with Goodell's BROAD power no one can really dispute it. Oh & I forgot my answer to the question. Barry Sanders because he was........& I am a homer :p

[QUOTE=phreak9;10803900]Manning is GOAT at least as far as QB goes. 1st team all pro 8x in the Favre Marino Brady Rodgers Rivers era is extremely impressive.

I give almost half of Bradys credit to the coach.

Keep in mind i dont even like Peyton Manning but if i were a GM or owner i know no matter who the coach is or how the roster looks that Peyton will walk us into the playoffs.

Brady hasnt won without belichick as his coach. Even Cassell won a lot with Belichick when Brady was hurt. Wheras Manning won with Caldwell!![/QUOTE]

So we punish Brady because he has better coaches than Manning? So Brady's 4 SB wins are less significant because Manning had worse coaches? Like I dont get that argument.

In the beginning, Manning had a MUCH better supporting cast. 2007 on, it has been towards Brady.

And Matt Cassell didnt lead the Patriots to the playoffs, I dont get using him to discount what Brady did? How many scrub QB's have gotten 11 wins in the league?

A lot.

IMO, Johnny U is the GOAT. He is the "OG" NFL quarterback who had remarkable accomplishments for the period he played in.

Second is extremely tough, but I believe it's a toss up between Montana and P Manning.

Montana simply because he was the Michael Jordan of the NFL when he played. Just as Jordan was a perfect 6-0 in the NBA Finals, Montana was a perfect 4-0 in Super Bowls, [B]never throwing a single interception[/B]. Just unreal.

Manning on the other hand, well, his accomplishments speak for themselves. IMO, he is far and away the most accomplished QB in history. And just because I know people love to make the "Peyton is a choker" arguments, I just want to share some info I found in a similar thread (credit to member coureymarshall)

[QUOTE]During Peyton Manning's time with Indianapolis (1998 to 2010 - excluding the 2011 season), the NFL was a combined 48-5 (.906) in the playoffs when committing zero (0) turnovers. During the same time period, the Indianapolis Colts were 1-5 (.167) in the playoffs when committing zero (0) turnovers.

No quarterback has lost more playoff games (minimum 15 attempts) when throwing zero interceptions than Peyton Manning (5 games).

Peyton Manning is the only quarterback in NFL history with two (2) "lost comebacks" in the playoffs. A lost comeback is a game where the quarterback met all the requirements for a fourth quarter comeback, except the team still lost the game because they lost the lead again. Manning had lost comebacks against the 2007 Chargers and 2010 Jets.

THIS is the craziest stat of all:

[B]Of Peyton Manning's eight (8) "one and done" playoff losses, his teams led in the final 0:40 of fourth quarter four (4) times.[/B][/QUOTE]

I think this pretty much sums up the reason why team success should never be the 'be all end all' when judging a QB's entire resume.

[QUOTE=RogerGodahell;10799070]172-51 record, Highest winning percentage all time, and this....


NFL records
NFL (career)
Most games, 145+ passer rating, career: 13
Most games, 125+ passer rating, season: 7
Highest completion percentage, post-season game (minimum 20 attempts): 92.9
Most games with at least 75% pass completion rate and no interceptions, season (minimum 20 attempts per game): 6
Highest completion percentage, game (minimum 6 TD passes): 85.3
Longest pass completion: 99 yards (tied with 12 other QBs)
Most Passing Touchdowns, Season, Away: 29
Most Games 3+ TD Passes, Season: 12
Most consecutive home games with 1+ touchdown pass: 47
Most Consecutive Uninterrupted Games, 1+ Touchdown Passes: 52
Most Consecutive Games, 3+ Touchdown Passes: 10
Most Passing Touchdowns, one quarter: 5
Most games, 115+ passer rating, season: 10, Aaron Rodgers 2011, Tom Brady 2007, Steve Young 1994
Most games, 120+ passer rating, season: 8, Tom Brady, 2007, Philip Rivers, 2008
Most games, 140+ passer rating, season: 4, Jacky Lee 1961, Roger Staubach 1973, Tom Brady 2007 & 2010, Aaron Rodgers 2011 & 2014
Most games, 145+ passer rating, season: 4, Tom Brady 2007, Roger Staubach 1973
Most games, 150+ passer rating, season: 2, Steve Young 1993, Kurt Warner 1999, Tom Brady 2007, Drew Brees 2009, Aaron Rodgers 2014
Most seasons, 110+ passer rating: 2, Tom Brady 2007-2010, Peyton Manning 2004-2013, Aaron Rodgers 2011-2014
Most games 35 completions, season: 3, Tom Brady 2002, Rich Gannon 2002 and Peyton Manning 2010
Most passing yards, any quarter: 252, Tom Brady on October 19, 2009; Boomer Esiason on November 10, 1996
Most consecutive 400+ yards passing games: 2; Dan Fouts, 1982; Dan Marino, 1984; Phil Simms, 1985; Billy Volek, 2004; Matt Cassel, 2008; Cam Newton, 2011, Tom Brady, 2011; Philip Rivers, 2013
Most Games 1+ TD Passes, Season: 16, Dan Marino, 1984, 1986; Dave Krieg, 1984; Kurt Warner, 1999; Brett Favre, 2003; Daunte Culpepper, 2004; Tom Brady, 2010–2012; Drew Brees, 2010–2011, 2013-2014; Matthew Stafford, 2011; Peyton Manning, 2012–2013; Philip Rivers, 2013; Ben Roethlisberger, 2013
Most Seasons, 50+ Touchdown Passes: 1, Tom Brady, 2007; Peyton Manning, 2013
Most Consecutive Games, 5+ Touchdown Passes: 2, Ben Roethlisberger 2014, Tom Brady 2007, Daunte Culpepper 2004, Tom Flores (AFL) 1963,
Most consecutive home wins, regular season, by a starting quarterback: 31, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2006–2011
Most road wins in a season, regular season, by a starting quarterback: 8, Joe Montana, San Francisco 49ers, 1990; Kurt Warner, St. Louis Rams, 2001; Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2007; Tony Romo, Dallas Cowboys, 2014
Most wins in a season, regular season and post-season, by a starting quarterback: 18, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2007
Most wins in a season, regular season, by a starting quarterback: 16, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2007
Most consecutive wins against a single opponent, regular season and post-season, by a starting quarterback: 13, Steve Young, San Francisco 49ers, vs. Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams, 1987, 1991–1998; Tom Brady, New England Patriots vs. Buffalo Bills, 2003–2010
Most career wins with one team: 172
Fewest pass attempts to reach 400 passing touchdowns: 7,282
Has amassed eight 50-point games in his career, most in NFL history:
52 vs. Washington (10/28/07) 56 vs. Buffalo (11/18/07) 59 vs. Tennessee (10/18/09) 52 at Buffalo (9/30/12) 59 vs. Indianapolis (11/18/12) 55 vs. Pittsburgh (11/3/13) 51 vs. Chicago (10/26/14) 51 vs. Jacksonville (9/27/15)

Playoffs (career)
Most games played - 31[146]
Most games started for a quarterback - 31
Most games won as starting quarterback - 22
Most consecutive wins, post-season, by a starting quarterback: 10
Most consecutive wins to start a career, post-season, by a starting quarterback: 10, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2001, 2003–2005
Most career home wins, post-season, by a starting quarterback: 15, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2001–2016
Most consecutive home wins, post-season, by a starting quarterback: 8, Tom Brady, New England Patriots, 2001–2007; Jim Kelly, Buffalo Bills 1988, 1990–1991, 1993, 1995
Most touchdown passes - 56
Most yards gained - 7,345
Most passes completed - 683
Most passes attempted - 1,085
Most division titles for a starting quarterback - 13
Most NFL conference championship appearances for a starting quarterback - 10
Most NFL conference championship wins for a starting quarterback - 6
Most career 300+ passing yard games in postseason history

Super Bowl (career)
Most touchdown passes - 13[147]
Most yards gained - 1,605
Most passes completed - 164
Most passes attempted - 247
Most passes completed in first half of a single Super Bowl - 20
Most passes completed in a single Super Bowl - 37
Most Super Bowl appearances - 6 (tied with Mike Lodish)[/QUOTE]


Pretty solid evidence right here...........

When he retires Brady will easily go down as one of the best NFL players in history.......I'm just happy I've been able to watch him since 2001!:)!

[QUOTE=devo;10804402]IMO, Johnny U is the GOAT. He is the "OG" NFL quarterback who had remarkable accomplishments for the period he played in.

Second is extremely tough, but I believe it's a toss up between Montana and P Manning.

Montana simply because he was the Michael Jordan of the NFL when he played. Just as Jordan was a perfect 6-0 in the NBA Finals, Montana was a perfect 4-0 in Super Bowls, [B]never throwing a single interception[/B]. Just unreal.

Manning on the other hand, well, his accomplishments speak for themselves. IMO, he is far and away the most accomplished QB in history. And just because I know people love to make the "Peyton is a choker" arguments, I just want to share some info I found in a similar thread (credit to member coureymarshall)



I think this pretty much sums up the reason why team success should never be the 'be all end all' when judging a QB's entire resume.[/QUOTE]

INTs aren't the only bad thing a QB can do.
Game Logs of Playoff losses without an interception:
19/42, 45% COMP, 227 Yards, 0 TD, 0 INT
17/32, 53% COMP, 194 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT
22/38, 58% COMP, 290 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT
25/ 42, 59% COMP, 310 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT
18/ 26, 69% COMP, 225 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT
26/ 46, 56% COMP, 211 Yards, 1 TD, 0 INT