I don’t think buying baseball cards is gambling
 

In the past 2-3 years, posts in this forum have focused on gambling and gamblers. Why is that?

The courts have found that buying sports cards is not gambling, so why do people keep saying that it is or calling others who participate in the hobby/business “gamblers,” “degenerate gamblers,” “Johns,” “muppets,” “Fozzies,” etc?

Prices have gone up - yes - and I understand why people aren’t happy with that; however, why are there so many posts focused on “gamblers” and “gambling” when the price point is set by the manufacturer or retailer (not the customer - they are only justification).

:coffee:[QUOTE=ScooterD;19773027]In the past 2-3 years, posts in this forum have focused on gambling and gamblers. Why is that?

The courts have found that buying sports cards is not gambling, so why do people keep saying that it is or calling others who participate in the hobby/business “gamblers,” “degenerate gamblers,” “Johns,” “muppets,” “Fozzies,” etc?

Prices have gone up - yes - and I understand why people aren’t happy with that; however, why are there so many posts focused on “gamblers” and “gambling” when the price point is set by the manufacturer or retailer (not the customer - they are only justification).[/QUOTE]

:coffee::coffee::coffee:

[QUOTE=ScooterD;19773027]In the past 2-3 years, posts in this forum have focused on gambling and gamblers. Why is that?

The courts have found that buying sports cards is not gambling, so why do people keep saying that it is or calling others who participate in the hobby/business “gamblers,” “degenerate gamblers,” “Johns,” “muppets,” “Fozzies,” etc?

Prices have gone up - yes - and I understand why people aren’t happy with that; however, why are there so many posts focused on “gamblers” and “gambling” when the price point is set by the manufacturer or retailer (not the customer - they are only justification).[/QUOTE]

I dunno...could be because so many people are non-collectors who are just in it hoping for a big hit and the associated payday when it comes to breaks? Or they're buying cards by the box or case themselves also hoping for the big hit. How is that different than buying a scratch off lottery ticket? Why bother stating the odds then as well?

[QUOTE=Big35Hurt;19773039]I dunno...could be because so many people are non-collectors who are just in it hoping for a big hit and the associated payday when it comes to breaks? Or they're buying cards by the box or case themselves also hoping for the big hit. How is that different than buying a scratch off lottery ticket? Why bother stating the odds then as well?[/QUOTE]

I agree with the sentiment, but that’s not new. The hobby/business ignores it for 75 years, and then focuses on it in the last 2-3 years? Why?

Let me guess. You think trading 0DTE options isn’t ever gambling either.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;19773046]Let me guess. You think trading 0DTE options isn’t ever gambling either.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, I don’t understand what you just posted. I can’t comment on that.

I think you're wrong.

[QUOTE=ScooterD;19773041]I agree with the sentiment, but that’s not new. The hobby/business ignores it for 75 years, and then focuses on it in the last 2-3 years? Why?[/QUOTE]

2-3 years? It has been longer than that.

[QUOTE=Bosoxfan5990;19773053]I think you're wrong.[/QUOTE]

And I respect the opinion - just disagree and trying to understand it.

Can you elaborate as to what has changed in the last 2-3(ish) years that makes the courts wrong on the subject?

[QUOTE=mc1;19773060]2-3 years? It has been longer than that.[/QUOTE]

Used round numbers, but many more posts about it in recent years

[QUOTE=ScooterD;19773062]And I respect the opinion - just disagree and trying to understand it.

Can you elaborate as to what has changed in the last 2-3(ish) years that makes the courts wrong on the subject?[/QUOTE]

Established bounties from the manufacturers themselves.

[QUOTE=Bosoxfan5990;19773065]Established bounties from the manufacturers themselves.[/QUOTE]

How does that play into the courts’ definitions of gambling?

[QUOTE=ScooterD;19773027]In the past 2-3 years, posts in this forum have focused on gambling and gamblers. Why is that?

The courts have found that buying sports cards is not gambling, so why do people keep saying that it is or calling others who participate in the hobby/business “gamblers,” “degenerate gamblers,” “Johns,” “muppets,” “Fozzies,” etc?

Prices have gone up - yes - and I understand why people aren’t happy with that; however, why are there so many posts focused on “gamblers” and “gambling” when the price point is set by the manufacturer or retailer (not the customer - they are only justification).[/QUOTE]

To be fair, there is only one post on the entire board that uses the word “fozzies”.

[QUOTE=Boo;19773074]To be fair, there is only one post on the entire board that uses the word “fozzies”.[/QUOTE]

You’ve been around - any insight on the matter?

[QUOTE=ScooterD;19773041]I agree with the sentiment, but that’s not new. The hobby/business ignores it for 75 years, and then focuses on it in the last 2-3 years? Why?[/QUOTE]

True, but didn't the hobby seem to explode during Covid and would align with the last 2-3 years statement? It's not an influx of new collectors for the most part from what I have read. It's an influx of people trying to make a quick buck by taking chances with breakers or their own box/case breaks. I may be completely wrong on all counts as I took an extended break from the hobby and have come back, albeit rather slowly (just one card show attended in early December), no Ebay purchases, and only a couple of new cards bought to add to my PC.

[QUOTE=ScooterD;19773070]How does that play into the courts’ definitions of gambling?[/QUOTE]
:cry:

So you view all group break participants as collectors or investors? Or what exactly if they’re not gambling?

[QUOTE=Big35Hurt;19773078]True, but didn't the hobby seem to explode during Covid and would align with the last 2-3 years statement? It's not an influx of new collectors for the most part from what I have read. It's an influx of people trying to make a quick buck by taking chances with breakers or their own box/case breaks. I may be completely wrong on all counts as I took an extended break from the hobby and have come back, albeit rather slowly (just one card show attended in early December), no Ebay purchases, and only a couple of new cards bought to add to my PC.[/QUOTE]

Agree with everything you said, but it doesn’t make what we have done gambling. It just means that there are more parties involved that are more interested in money than the hobby/business.

Imagine how much more money everyone would have if every dollar they spent on modern wax/breaks just went into slot machines instead. It's not gambling because when you actually gamble your gonna get somewhere between a 95-102% ROI and thats ignoring the AP opporunities

I'm done responding as I see where this discussion is going.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;19773081]:cry:

So you view all group break participants as collectors or investors? Or what exactly if they’re not gambling?[/QUOTE]

People who pay money for unknown items from defined teams or serial numbers. That’s my best answer. It’s been happening since the 90s, and no one called it gambling.

If it was gambling, breakers would require age verification. They don’t - so it isn’t gambling. It IS “a gamble,” but so it driving a car to the LCS

[QUOTE=Bosoxfan5990;19773088]I'm done responding as I see where this discussion is going.[/QUOTE]

We have engaged on these board before - we don’t have a problem with each other. My only interest is trying to understand where everyone is coming from. If I’m wrong, I’ll accept that.

Breakers enabled the poors to participate in high end products.

The culture transformed the fiscally irresponsible into degenerates who pay higher than they need to in order to get their fix.

If breaking was banned and junkies were only allowed to purchase entire sealed boxes to open, prices would be a lot lower as the demand from the poor masses would decline significantly.

Buying and collecting baseball cards is not gambling.

Buying into breaks solely looking to hit big, grade and sell a huge card is probably gambling. Heck, buying into breaks to hit cards of players you collect and like is also gambling. Especially if you could buy many more singles of that player for cheaper. EDIT: There was a thread with this scenario but cannot find it. It gives a good insight into the gambler mentality running rampant.

[QUOTE=mc1;19773093]Buying and collecting baseball cards is not gambling.

Buying into breaks solely looking to hit big, grade and sell a huge card is probably gambling. Heck, buying into breaks to hit cards of players you collect and like is also gambling. Especially if you could buy many more singles of that player for cheaper. EDIT: There was a thread with this scenario but cannot find it. It gives a good insight into the gambler mentality running rampant.[/QUOTE]

But there are posts today saying that people who buy boxes (not breaks) are gamblers, too. Besides, breaking (while more wide spread now) has been around since at least the late-80s. No one said anything about gambling at that time, and it’s still legal for people under 18… so legally is not gambling.

[QUOTE=ScooterD;19773091]We have engaged on these board before - we don’t have a problem with each other. My only interest is trying to understand where everyone is coming from. If I’m wrong, I’ll accept that.[/QUOTE]

Every response in this thread has just been moving goalposts. I have no additional interest in responding in this specific thread.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;19773092]Breakers enabled the poors to participate in high end products.

The culture transformed the fiscally irresponsible into degenerates who pay higher than they need to in order to get their fix.

If breaking was banned and junkies were only allowed to purchase entire sealed boxes to open, prices would be a lot lower as the demand from the poor masses would decline significantly.[/QUOTE]

Everyone who buys into a break is a “poor” and a “junkie”?

[QUOTE=ScooterD;19773089]People who pay money for unknown items from defined teams or serial numbers. That’s my best answer. It’s been happening since the 90s, and no one called it gambling.

If it was gambling, breakers would require age verification. They don’t - so it isn’t gambling. It IS “a gamble,” but so it driving a car to the LCS[/QUOTE]
Get help.

[QUOTE=ScooterD;19773109]Everyone who buys into a break is a “poor” and a “junkie”?[/QUOTE]
For sports breaks? Yes.

[QUOTE=Bosoxfan5990;19773108]Every response in this thread has just been moving goalposts. I have no additional interest in responding in this specific thread.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t mean to move goalposts - I honestly just wanted to know whether the courts or the posts are wrong about this topic.

If you think you are getting a big hit out of a break, you are a gambler. If you are doing it to have a good time and know you will lose money that is budgeted for, it is not a gamble. Pretty simple.

[QUOTE=ScooterD;19773109]Everyone who buys into a break is a “poor” and a “junkie”?[/QUOTE]

That’s how it all started.

Poor Johns couldn’t afford to buy even a single box of national treasures, so they banded together with 30 other poor Johns to grossly overpay a man with hairy hands in a video stream to open a single box for them with no individual guarantees of any cards from their purchase.

This is opposed to a person buying a box of NT on their own to open for themselves; they are guaranteeing themselves a randomized assortment of cards from the product they are collecting. This is the only fair way for companies to distribute cards that are in high demand. It is randomized, but you are guaranteed something in the box from opening it.

The poors evolved into the degenerate gamblers and now even some people who have money have become degenerates as well, though they have enough financial backing to prevent insolvency.

another useless blowout forum debate

[QUOTE=ScooterD;19773113]I didn’t mean to move goalposts - I honestly just wanted to know whether the courts or the posts are wrong about this topic.[/QUOTE]
Do you live and die by what the courts say? In December, did you think biological males were fine to play in girls’ high school sports, and now you’ve changed your mind?

And while we are at it please explain the term bo-is ?
What is a bois ?lol

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;19773129]That’s how it all started.

Poor Johns couldn’t afford to buy even a single box of national treasures, so they banded together with 30 other poor Johns to grossly overpay a man with hairy hands in a video stream to open a single box for them with no individual guarantees of any cards from their purchase.

This is opposed to a person buying a box of NT on their own to open for themselves; they are guaranteeing themselves a randomized assortment of cards from the product they are collecting. This is the only fair way for companies to distribute cards that are in high demand. It is randomized, but you are guaranteed something in the box from opening it.

The poors evolved into the degenerate gamblers and now even some people who have money have become degenerates as well, though they have enough financial backing to prevent insolvency.[/QUOTE]
Scooter probably thinks it’s not gambling to do the wheel spins at a lot of these degenerate shows.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;19773143]Scooter probably thinks it’s not gambling to do the wheel spins at a lot of these degenerate shows.[/QUOTE]

He’s still trying to hit cable cars and snake eyes at the dice game booth.

Your answer to this question depends on whether you think "gambling" and "bad financial decision" are synonymous.

Who cares?

[QUOTE=Poorboy;19773135]And while we are at it please explain the term bo-is ?
What is a bois ?lol[/QUOTE]

Poor hobby participants who will desperately try anything to hit it rich.

You must become familiar with this term in order to participate in these boards.

Please, don’t evolve into a poor bois.

wax is gambling

"This is opposed to a person buying a box of NT on their own to open for themselves; they are guaranteeing themselves a randomized assortment of cards from the product they are collecting. This is the only fair way for companies to distribute cards that are in high demand. It is randomized, but you are guaranteed something in the box from opening it."

It's actually a lot more complicated than this.
The card contents of boxes aren't random. The card companies know exactly what cards are in what boxes and distribute them accordingly to a hierarchy of customers/breakers.
Certain customers and breakers get preferential loaded boxes/cases while others get the less loaded boxes/cases.
First waves of products are usually better than second waves of products.

One could actually argue, that you would be more likely to hit a big hit if you participated in one of the big two or three big breakers breaks.

This is the way, that the card companies have been able to reap even bigger profits.

[QUOTE=Trueblue;19773157]Your answer to this question depends on whether you think "gambling" and "bad financial decision" are synonymous.[/QUOTE]

That’s where the degenerate part fits in.

It’s ok to drink a beer, but don’t be a degenerate alcohol consumer.

[QUOTE=ThoseBackPages;19773167]wax is gambling[/QUOTE]

Wax is the only fair way to randomize highly desired items to the general public.

How you choose to extract those cards from sealed boxes gives you different degrees of gambling, from necessary randomization to grossly overpriced degeneracy.

[QUOTE=wilsonsingles;19773168]"This is opposed to a person buying a box of NT on their own to open for themselves; they are guaranteeing themselves a randomized assortment of cards from the product they are collecting. This is the only fair way for companies to distribute cards that are in high demand. It is randomized, but you are guaranteed something in the box from opening it."

It's actually a lot more complicated than this.
The card contents of boxes aren't random. The card companies know exactly what cards are in what boxes and distribute them accordingly to a hierarchy of customers/breakers.
Certain customers and breakers get preferential loaded boxes/cases while others get the less loaded boxes/cases.
First waves of products are usually better than second waves of products.

One could actually argue, that you would be more likely to hit a big hit if you participated in one of the big two or three big breakers breaks.

This is way, that the card companies have been able to reap even bigger profits.[/QUOTE]

That’s a conspiracy theory only degenerate breakers would believe bro.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;19773174]Wax is the only fair way to randomize highly desired items to the general public.

How you choose to extract those cards from sealed boxes gives you different degrees of gambling, from necessary randomization to grossly overpriced degeneracy.[/QUOTE]

not truly randomized, otherwise it would almost be fair.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;19773177]That’s a conspiracy theory only degenerate breakers would believe bro.[/QUOTE]

this has been proven 100%, if you don't believe/understand this you haven't done your research.

[QUOTE=Poorboy;19773135]And while we are at it please explain the term bo-is ?
What is a bois ?lol[/QUOTE]

I grew up in the skating world and it has a lot of uses. It started as a use for black masculine lesbians. In the 1990's one of the rappers of Outkast named himself Big Boi. Skating back in the day was a combination of punk and rap music. I used to go to Warp Tour every year. It started as punk/rap and ended as punk/emo. One year I went to Warp Tour and Dr Dre cancelled last minute, and an unknown rapper named Eminem took his place.

Boi became more prominent in the punk/skating world with Avril Lavigne's Sk8er Boi. It is a term that the LGBTQ community uses, but is used by other groups as well.

So many big hits are held back, provided by redemption or given to certain buyers/breakers, that it skews the random arguement hugely.
This is common knowledge that many choose to ignore.

[QUOTE=wilsonsingles;19773182]this has been proven 100%, if you don't believe/understand this you haven't done your research.[/QUOTE]

It’s a marketing scheme to get you hooked.

[QUOTE=Poorboy;19773135]And while we are at it please explain the term bo-is ?
What is a bois ?lol[/QUOTE]

Maybe rooted in being a less than manly way of being a blind follower or a fan of certain things, influencers or a movement.

This thread is like catnip for Hermano!

[QUOTE=wilsonsingles;19773180]not truly randomized, otherwise it would almost be fair.[/QUOTE]

Let’s call it a public perception of fair randomization to spur sales.

It’s still the only way for companies to distribute high demand cards in a “fair” fashion, especially in products that don’t have “rare” hits such as pre-1991 wax.

I expect to get nothing of value back, therefore it is not gambling.

[QUOTE=MiamiMarlinsFan;19773217]This thread is like catnip for Hermano![/QUOTE]

I heart this stuff.

You know me too well :).

[QUOTE=Poorboy;19773135]And while we are at it please explain the term bo-is ?
What is a bois ?lol[/QUOTE]


It’s used here to insult a person or a group of people. Call them a name that ends in “boi”. It’s a different way of spelling “boy” that makes it sound silly.

You’ll hear “Peli-bois” here a lot to describe people that go around shows with Pelican cases looking to sell their PSA 10 base Zions and such.

It has its roots in the LGBTQ community, but become more popularized by Avril Lavigne’s song “Sk8er Boi”.

[URL="https://lgbtqia.fandom.com/wiki/Boi"]https://lgbtqia.fandom.com/wiki/Boi[/URL]

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;19773222]I heart this stuff.

You know me too well :).[/QUOTE]

I’m just happy you’re happy.

[QUOTE=ScooterD;19773070]How does that play into the courts’ definitions of gambling?[/QUOTE]Post the citation to the cases to support your position, please.

Last time I researched it (which was years ago), the courts only found it wasn't gambling because of the "no purchase necessary" program/disclaimer. There's a reason that language is on every box--because courts held it WAS gambling without it.

The customer (degenerate breaker culture) demand has enabled manufactures to set the prices at what they are today. They still sell out, which tells you they still haven’t reached the saturation point yet.

It’s primarily the manufacturer response to market demand, not something they arbitrarily command.

Please don’t leave out the box flipper bois either, the middlemen who are also responsible for the increasing demand and thus higher market prices. The box flipper bois don’t consume the product (open boxes), they simply drive up the costs for the end consumers.

[QUOTE=MiamiMarlinsFan;19773217]This thread is like catnip for Hermano![/QUOTE]

i knew he would show up on this one.....

[QUOTE=MiamiMarlinsFan;19773227]I’m just happy you’re happy.[/QUOTE]

this thread has something for everone....:)!

Was it gambling when Gene Wilder put the tickets in the Wonka bars?

[QUOTE=gresh87;19773281]Was it gambling when Gene Wilder put the tickets in the Wonka bars?[/QUOTE]

Not sure, but it didn’t feel like it since they were happy to get the ticket and what came with it. In today’s world, as soon as Charlie pulled that ticket he would have sent it off to Goldin and bought separate beds for his poor grandparents with the money (all four were in one bed!).

[QUOTE=MiamiMarlinsFan;19773291]Not sure, but it didn’t feel like it since they were happy to get the ticket and what came with it. In today’s world, as soon as Charlie pulled that ticket he would have sent it off to Goldin and bought separate beds for his poor grandparents with the money (all four were in one bed!).[/QUOTE]

Grandpa Joe was chronic malingerer!

The OP has to be trolling right?

The cards themselves aren't gambling-
-- it's the method they are sold and the emphasis on the value of hit cards that makes it gambling.

The cards are used as holders of value like poker chips at a casino. You have bounties and buyback programs from dealers and the manufacturer that literally put a monetary value on specific chase cards.

The most sought-after cards are the most financially valuable.

You have group breakers who deal cards like dealers at a poker table. You have participants who win or lose based on the monetary value of the cards they pull.

Game of chance + emphasis on monetary value of winnings = gambling.

As someone who has been collecting for 45+ years now, I'll try to provide a more nuanced take.

From a historical perspective, two things have happened in the last decade that really weren't part of the hobby before that.

The first is the advent of high-end "hit only" products with no base set/cards. I think these started to be released sometime between 2010-2015 (someone else can figure out the exact year). But those were the first products that were designed to appeal to specifically to gamblers.

The second, of course, is breaking. Prior to the advent of breaking (again not sure of the exact year, but I'd guess sometime around 2017-19), the idea of paying someone else to open your cards for you would have been considered preposterous...the whole point of buying boxes was for the pleasure/enjoyment of opening them.

Now back to the OP's original assertion. I think question of whether or not buying wax is gambling depends both on the product and the motivation of the buyer. For any of the high-end products without a base set, or with a structure in which there are more "hits" than base cards in a pack/box, then yes....buying those is gambling, because the only reason to do so is to hope that you get a card worth more than what you paid.

On the flip side, buying boxes of products that have base sets that collectors build is not gambling to me, even though it may be a financial gamble to do so given the quality of the content vis-a-vis the price of a box/case.

Speaking of families and golden tickets, when you watch this clip, there’s really no difference between this and seeing a news clip of family that hit the lucky numbers the night before. To be clear: I’m happy for the family and have no issue with them selling it, but it does make the modern wax/breaking game feel a bit like gambling.

[URL="https://www.instagram.com/reel/DEiDBwEvVQT/?igsh=MXZzMzU2aXQ2dDZxNw=="]https://www.instagram.com/reel/DEiDBwEvVQT/?igsh=MXZzMzU2aXQ2dDZxNw==[/URL]

[QUOTE=MiamiMarlinsFan;19773291]Not sure, but it didn’t feel like it since they were happy to get the ticket and what came with it. In today’s world, as soon as Charlie pulled that ticket he would have sent it off to Goldin and bought separate beds for his poor grandparents with the money (all four were in one bed!).[/QUOTE]

As an alternative in today’s world, Charlie would have been paid by 30 guys to open his chocolate bar on a video steam and yelled BOOM when he hit the ticket, guaranteeing his smaller, though secure, profit for each chocolate bar he purchased.

Grandpa Joe in the meantime could have remained independent by posing in his undies and getting paid $2.99 per month for the subscription to members only content.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;19773384]As an alternative in today’s world, Charlie would have been paid by 30 guys to open his chocolate bar on a video steam and yelled BOOM when he hit the ticket, guaranteeing his smaller, though secure, profit for each chocolate bar he purchased.

Grandpa Joe in the meantime could have remained independent by posing in his undies and getting paid $2.99 per month for the subscription to members only content.[/QUOTE]

I mean… it’s not far off from current day reality.

can we merge this with conspiracy thread?

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;19773129]That’s how it all started.

Poor Johns couldn’t afford to buy even a single box of national treasures, so they banded together with 30 other poor Johns to grossly overpay a man with hairy hands in a video stream to open a single box for them with no individual guarantees of any cards from their purchase.

This is opposed to a person buying a box of NT on their own to open for themselves; they are guaranteeing themselves a randomized assortment of cards from the product they are collecting. This is the only fair way for companies to distribute cards that are in high demand. It is randomized, but you are guaranteed something in the box from opening it.

The poors evolved into the degenerate gamblers and now even some people who have money have become degenerates as well, though they have enough financial backing to prevent insolvency.[/QUOTE]

Boomo!

[QUOTE=green4407;19773420]Boomo![/QUOTE]

Oh my word....that guy.

[QUOTE=green4407;19773420]Boomo![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=NYRE2PECT;19773431]Oh my word....that guy.[/QUOTE]

[url]https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=403866[/url]

Scary to think this was near the puberty of the breaking culture.

About 12 years ago today.

[QUOTE=MiamiMarlinsFan;19773392]I mean… it’s not far off from current day reality.[/QUOTE]

maybe [butt] the visuals of grandpa ?????
ewwwwwwwwwww