What will it take for Joker to be in top 10 conversation?
 

Guy is going to win his 3rd MVP and probably 2nd title. When will he be in the all time top 10 conversation?

A title this year gets him in the convo for bottom of the top 10. like 8-12ish.

[QUOTE=jcardstore;19401443]A title this year gets him in the convo for bottom of the top 10. like 8-12ish.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. A title this year will really get people talking. I will say though, consistency over time is going to be just as important. Let's say he gets another title and MVP this year. It's not like he can trail off next year and leave his lifetime titles to two. The top 10 maintained their greatness throughout their entire careers.

[QUOTE=jcardstore;19401443]A title this year gets him in the convo for bottom of the top 10. like 8-12ish.[/QUOTE]

Agreed - but he’s going to need a bit of additional hardware in his Trophy Case over the next 5-ish + Years to stay there…..

[QUOTE=oldgoldy97;19401439]Guy is going to win his 3rd MVP and probably 2nd title. When will he be in the all time top 10 conversation?[/QUOTE]

Not any time soon. Moses Malone has 3 MVPs, 1 FMVP and title and he is nowhere close to top 10. A title and MVP put him in the top 15-20, but he has only been a top player for 6 seasons (3 1st team All NBA and 2 2nd team). He needs to keep playing at a high level for several more years to be in the top 10 debate.

When he gets his fourth ring.

The bigger question is who is he going to bump out of the top 10?

Damn, I brought this up a few weeks ago and was mocked.

If that happens, you gotta start considering it, specially since it looks like he won't slow down. You can pencil what, 3 more All-NBA and 3 more All-Star appearances?

3x MVP, 1-2x FMVP, 9 All-NBA, 9 All-Star, 5-6 1st Team...he'll be in the neighborhood but I don't know if it's enough to pass Hakeem/Kobe.

Is he retiring? Or are we just ignoring how many more stats he will accumulate?

Gotta love the seething going on with the NeW mEdiA

If credibility wasn’t shot already…

He's got to get a sexier body, that's for sure. That's all that's holding him back at this point. That and being the world's biggest jockey in a Kentucky Derby. He'd be close to being goated then.

[QUOTE=ninjabum87;19401832]He's got to get a sexier body, that's for sure. That's all that's holding him back at this point. That and being the world's biggest jockey in a Kentucky Derby. He'd be close to being goated then.[/QUOTE]

It’s so bad, I can no longer tell the difference between Jokic and Doncic!

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;19401845]It’s so bad, I can no longer tell the difference between Jokic and Doncic![/QUOTE]

These dad bod Euro bois all look the same. You're never gonna achieve greatness without some hot chiseled triceps and whatnot. You gotta make me reflexively bite my lower lip when I see you to be on my big board.

Longevity.

Great numbers in a short window. Now he just has to add to them.

[QUOTE=indyguy;19401869]Longevity.

Great numbers in a short window. Now he just has to add to them.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't seem to hurt MJ. I do take longevity into acct, which is why I have Kareem as #1 all-time, but most seem to not care that MJ isn't anywhere near the all-time leaderboards.

[QUOTE=daeve;19401888]Doesn't seem to hurt MJ. I do take longevity into acct, which is why I have Kareem as #1 all-time, but most seem to not care that MJ isn't anywhere near the all-time leaderboards.[/QUOTE]

I think with MJ there's a feeling that he isn't he because he didn't care much about it, not because he couldn't.

You tell MJ what LeBron is doing at 40 in the early 90s and his career would look differently.

If he wins the MVP and another title this year the conversation starts. It really depends on who your top ten is but in terms of big man, if he gets another MVP and title he passes Shaq and Tim Duncan in my eyes. That would leave him 4th to Russell, Wilt and Kareem.

[QUOTE=SandStoneSports;19402002]If he wins the MVP and another title this year the conversation starts. It really depends on who your top ten is but in terms of big man, if he gets another MVP and title he passes Shaq and Tim Duncan in my eyes. That would leave him 4th to Russell, Wilt and Kareem.[/QUOTE]

That would really push Lebron out of the top 10!

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;19402009]That would really push Lebron out of the top 10![/QUOTE]

rent free

dumb me sez:
depends on Bubblemurray's health

smart me sez:
he'd probably have 2 or 3 titles already with a healthy Bubblemurray in '21 and '22, and he's arguably top 10 all-time already

winning 3 MVPs after the '80s is obviously really hard to do

since MJ's prime - a quarter century of NBA history - the top players are Bron, Timmy, Shaq, Joker, Kobe, Steph; only Bron and Timmy are ahead of Joker for sure

:flex:

[QUOTE=ninjabum87;19401850]These dad bod Euro bois all look the same. You're never gonna achieve greatness without some hot chiseled triceps and whatnot. You gotta make me reflexively bite my lower lip when I see you to be on my big board.[/QUOTE]

ridiculous efficiency just won't cut it. He has to jump high

[QUOTE=daeve;19401888]Doesn't seem to hurt MJ. I do take longevity into acct, which is why I have Kareem as #1 all-time, but most seem to not care that MJ isn't anywhere near the all-time leaderboards.[/QUOTE]

longevity counts but not for much in these discussions. The most important criteria are MVP Share and Finals accolades / playoff VORP, timeline-adjusted so that Kareem doesn't get overrated with all those MVPs either

[QUOTE=martymarty;19402016]rent free[/QUOTE]

Welcome back my man!

Where have you been?

14K in points 7K boards and less than 500 blocks for a 5 and people wanting to put him in top 10 already, man..most people on this board only been watching basketball since 2015 or above I see ..

2 regular season MVP + 1 ring and already in the top 10? lol

He needs way more

[QUOTE=daeve;19401888]Doesn't seem to hurt MJ. I do take longevity into acct, which is why I have Kareem as #1 all-time, but most seem to not care that MJ isn't anywhere near the all-time leaderboards.[/QUOTE]

MJ played 15 seasons. Jokic is finishing his 9th. I don't think he has to go until he is 40, but he has some catching up to do.

But, we are just talking top 10.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;19402026]Welcome back my man!

Where have you been?[/QUOTE]

He has 5 posts! How does he get a "welcome back"?

[QUOTE=SandStoneSports;19402002]If he wins the MVP and another title this year the conversation starts. It really depends on who your top ten is but in terms of big man, if he gets another MVP and title he passes Shaq and Tim Duncan in my eyes. That would leave him 4th to Russell, Wilt and Kareem.[/QUOTE]

I think I've posted it here before but my top 10 is:

Kareem
MJ
Lebron
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Magic
Shaq
Bird
Hakeem/Curry

The top 7 [Magic and up] will be tough, but I think if he gets another MVP/FMVP this year, then you can start to see him in the Shaq-Curry group.

Which of those guys listed did as much or more than Jokic with less? Maybe Hakeem gets closest... majority of them had multiple HoF teammates to get them to the top. Jokic still hasn't played with another all-star yet. If he ever gets a true '#2' who knows how long he'll go.

[QUOTE=the mesiah;19402057]14K in points 7K boards and less than 500 blocks for a 5 and people wanting to put him in top 10 already, man..most people on this board only been watching basketball since 2015 or above I see ..[/QUOTE]

absolutely love how you use blocks and completely disregard assists here :cry:

[QUOTE=the mesiah;19402057]14K in points 7K boards and less than 500 blocks for a 5 and people wanting to put him in top 10 already, man..most people on this board only been watching basketball since 2015 or above I see ..[/QUOTE]

Moses Malone 29k points (9th All time) and 17k boards (3rd All time) plus 3 MVPs and no one even talks about him.

^probably because Moses has 1 ring with a guy named Dr J or something as his cohort.

[QUOTE=daeve;19402083]absolutely love how you use blocks and completely disregard assists here :cry:[/QUOTE]

But he’s a 5 , don’t care if we are in 2024 and people like you disregard what a 5 is supposed to do ..numbers no where close to shaq, Dream, wilt, Timmy, Moses ..etc

I think the top 10 is really reserved for guys who were era defining players.

You could argue it was LeBron -> Curry -> Jokic

Curry I think has played himself into the top 10. If not he's 11 or 12. Jokic very well could jump Curry with 2 more rings + FMVP. Add in ~6 years of all nba 1st team and that's a pretty solid resume

[QUOTE=daeve;19402083]absolutely love how you use blocks and completely disregard assists here :cry:[/QUOTE]

the best thing about threads like this is all the cherry-picking of data points :)!

[QUOTE=the mesiah;19402109]But he’s a 5 , don’t care if we are in 2024 and people like you disregard what a 5 is supposed to do ..numbers no where close to shaq, Dream, wilt, Timmy, Moses ..etc[/QUOTE]

a 5 is supposed to get a team wins

there's no excuse for disregarding his assist numbers

[QUOTE=rats60;19402087]Moses Malone 29k points (9th All time) and 17k boards (3rd All time) plus 3 MVPs and no one even talks about him.[/QUOTE]



Exactly my point, boy only has 14K , 7K totals that’s it..and they want to put him in top 10 already

[QUOTE=the mesiah;19402115]Exactly my point, boy only has 14K , 7K totals that’s it..and they want to put him in top 10 already[/QUOTE]

If his career ended today, he's obviously not top 10. Nobody is even trying to argue that. The assumption is that his performance lasts for several more years.

[QUOTE=jcardstore;19402117]If his career ended today, he's obviously not top 10. Nobody is even trying to argue that. The assumption is that his performance lasts for several more years.[/QUOTE]



I understand that part as well, but even at just 2 chips and 3 mvps still have to add more than that to the resume to jump someone in top 10 ..

[QUOTE=rats60;19401625]Not any time soon. Moses Malone has 3 MVPs, 1 FMVP and title and he is nowhere close to top 10. A title and MVP put him in the top 15-20, but he has only been a top player for 6 seasons (3 1st team All NBA and 2 2nd team). He needs to keep playing at a high level for several more years to be in the top 10 debate.[/QUOTE]

this ftw, altho I'd say Moses is 15-18 which is close to the top 10, depending on your def of 'close.'

[QUOTE=GOATcards;19402114]the best thing about threads like this is all the cherry-picking of data points :)!



a 5 is supposed to get a team wins

there's no excuse for disregarding his assist numbers[/QUOTE]

Says the guy who only wants to count MVPs and FMVPs, the later heavily dependant on your teammates.

[QUOTE=rats60;19402087]Moses Malone 29k points (9th All time) and 17k boards (3rd All time) plus 3 MVPs and no one even talks about him.[/QUOTE]

Or Barkley who is below Moses, 1st/2nd team all-NBA 11x, 34th pts, 20th rebs, 6th OffReb, 29th[!] steals. 18th true shooting, 12th PER, 11th playoff PER, 11th Win Shares/48, 12th VORP.

Jokic has 5 All-NBA appearances thus far. 6 after this year. Ask us again after the 2029 playoffs. He keeps it up he'll be in Moses territory.

At least 5 more seasons of consistency at a high level like he is now.
An MVP this year (this is probably his last chance regardless since voters play favorites and seem sick of him)
2x more champs
2x more finals MVPs

That should put him 7-9 all time. Not a guarantee if he starts to break down as is already but hasn't had any issues yet which is good.

Interesting stat is he currently is 187th all time in points. Kawhi Leonard is 196 with 25 more games played. Just found it interesting as 5 yrs ago after he won his 2nd with Toronto I figured he'd have the best (non Curry/Lebron) chance of active players to crack the top 10. A lot can happen in 5 years.

I don't see him pushing anyone out of the Top 12 until he can pull off another title. Throw in another regular season MVP, and Finals MVP, he probably pushes Hakeem out. Even then that would be difficult with the impact Hakeem had on the game. Anyone else he'll need more rings.

Just LOL at him passing Tim Duncan and Shaq if he wins a title this season.

If he gets to 5 titles I'll give him that.

Plus Jokic has been getting destroyed by Embiid the past couple of seasons, it's debatable he's even the best big man im the league.

Would have loved to have seen prime TD and Shaq play prime Jokic as a basketball fan. I think Shaq would foul him out and 2003 TD was a better player.

Top 10s are getting really hard these days.

anyone here any good at timeline adjusting?

anyone here ever read any Bill James, who is pretty good about taking everything into account?

watch games with Joker and then go compare with games involving the top 10 players of the past. He's right in there with many of them, and before any timeline adjustments

Anyone capable of supposing for the sake of argument that he's already top 10, then seeing/finding the evidence already there for that?

Should we also just pretend that his #2 doesn't have enough health concerns that it basically makes him ineligible for All-Star appearances or All-NBA teams? The best we get from the Joker-deniers is that Murray's rate of production in the playoffs is all-star or all-nba level, and Joker-deniers are experts at moving goalposts

Get used to the idea that he's top 10 or close, and all of a sudden you can find evidence for this if you put in the effort.

(Okay, top 12 then. You can take Hakeem's two asterisked titles and lesser MVP share, both from 3 decades ago, and try to squeeze him into the new top 12, good luck. I'm just unsure whether he's surpassed Kobe and Steph for top-10 status, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a good argument out there for his having passed them. Also since we're talking such select company, you have to make arguments that might sound like denigrating other players, but these are all amazing talents.)

[QUOTE=drobfan8;19402201]
Plus Jokic has been getting destroyed by Embiid the past couple of seasons, it's debatable he's even the best big man im the league.
[/quote]

Let's just throw around phrases like "getting destroyed," without any definitions or context or any of that stuff that might get in the way, and hope we can get taken seriously.

In their matchups these last two seasons, Embiid has been a no-show half the time ffs.

a healthy Embiid, a non-existent thing, is this year's MVP. And?

Jokic has a long way to go before his career is over. Tough to rank him now. But in his era you have to conclude that overall, all things considered, he is the best Center playing now. On the verge of a third MVP and was on the cusp of a another MVP last year. Best passing big man - last year he almost averaged double digit assists per game - more than any other Center in the history of the NBA. And his "efficiency" numbers are absolutely off the chart.

[QUOTE=indyguy;19402074]He has 5 posts! How does he get a "welcome back"?[/QUOTE]

Anyone who defends Bron is a millennial.

Millennials feel they are entitled to second chances.

Even though he only has five posts, he acts like this is his second or even third time around.

A younger brand new poster would be too young to actually like Lebron.

Therefore, he could not possibly be a new board member.

Thus, he is being welcomed back under his new ID.

[QUOTE=daeve;19402079]I think I've posted it here before but my top 10 is:

Kareem
MJ
Lebron
Wilt
Russell
Duncan
Magic
Shaq
Bird
Hakeem/Curry

The top 7 [Magic and up] will be tough, but I think if he gets another MVP/FMVP this year, then you can start to see him in the Shaq-Curry group.

Which of those guys listed did as much or more than Jokic with less? Maybe Hakeem gets closest... majority of them had multiple HoF teammates to get them to the top. Jokic still hasn't played with another all-star yet. If he ever gets a true '#2' who knows how long he'll go.[/QUOTE]

We might be the only ones that don't have Kobe in our Top 10 lol

I have Hakeem, Kobe and then Chef. I think with a title and FMVP this year, Joker gets to the level just below it even if he retires afterwards.

[QUOTE=rats60;19401625]Not any time soon. Moses Malone has 3 MVPs, 1 FMVP and title and he is nowhere close to top 10. A title and MVP put him in the top 15-20, but he has only been a top player for 6 seasons (3 1st team All NBA and 2 2nd team). [B]He needs to keep playing at a high level for several more years to be in the top 10 debate.[/B][/QUOTE]

So that’s the answer.

[QUOTE=the mesiah;19402109]But he’s a 5 , don’t care if we are in 2024 and people like you disregard what a 5 is supposed to do ..numbers no where close to shaq, Dream, wilt, Timmy, Moses ..etc[/QUOTE]

And I don't care if he doesn't fit your narrative of 'what a 5 is supposed to do'. Incredibly stupid argument you're forming here.

[QUOTE=daeve;19402368]And I don't care if he doesn't fit your narrative of 'what a 5 is supposed to do'. Incredibly stupid argument you're forming here.[/QUOTE]

He has an ugly shot so everything he does is moot.

That’s a bad argument, too.

[QUOTE=yiguiri2002;19402285]We might be the only ones that don't have Kobe in our Top 10 lol

I have Hakeem, Kobe and then Chef. I think with a title and FMVP this year, Joker gets to the level just below it even if he retires afterwards.[/QUOTE]

Kobe would be the next name there fwiw... but yeah, I have Curry and Hakeem higher. I think I'll put Curry above Hakeem when it's all said and done, but for now I could go either way for #10 all-time.

[QUOTE=daeve;19402368]And I don't care if he doesn't fit your narrative of 'what a 5 is supposed to do'. Incredibly stupid argument you're forming here.[/QUOTE]



You care enough to post dummy ,

It's hilarious people think he needs 4-5 titles to crack the Top 10.

He doesn't. How many people have won that many titles as the best player on their team? MJ, LeBron, Russell, Magic, TD, maybe Steph. 6 at best.

Also, peaks carry a lot of weight. Larry Legend's totals compared to the rest of the Top 10 aren't great but he was one of the Top 3 players in the game for almost a decade.

[QUOTE=yiguiri2002;19402436]It's hilarious people think he needs 4-5 titles to crack the Top 10.

He doesn't. How many people have won that many titles as the best player on their team? MJ, LeBron, Russell, Magic, TD, maybe Steph. 6 at best.

Also, peaks carry a lot of weight. Larry Legend's totals compared to the rest of the Top 10 aren't great but he was one of the Top 3 players in the game for almost a decade.[/QUOTE]

Who does he bump out of the top 10? I don’t have Kobe in my top 10 but Jokic isn’t even there yet. Gonna need at least 3 rings to pass Hakeem too

[QUOTE=yiguiri2002;19402436]It's hilarious people think he needs 4-5 titles to crack the Top 10.

He doesn't. How many people have won that many titles as the best player on their team? MJ, LeBron, Russell, Magic, TD, maybe Steph. 6 at best.

Also, peaks carry a lot of weight. Larry Legend's totals compared to the rest of the Top 10 aren't great but he was one of the Top 3 players in the game for almost a decade.[/QUOTE]

I'm trying to find where anyone said he needs 5 titles to crack the top 10? :confused:

I think people seem to be counting Denver as champs this season, but it's pretty hard to go back to back. We shall see

[QUOTE=the mesiah;19402415]You care enough to post dummy ,[/QUOTE]

continuing to add to your incredibly stupid argument. great job. Do you knock Lebron for his assists also? Does he not play enough like Scottie Pippen for your tastes?

[QUOTE=daeve;19402525]continuing to add to your incredibly stupid argument. great job. Do you knock Lebron for his assists also? Does he not play enough like Scottie Pippen for your tastes?[/QUOTE]

He doesn’t play enough like Cousy for my taste dummy..

[QUOTE=the mesiah;19402591]He doesn’t play enough like Cousy for my taste dummy..[/QUOTE]

:cry:

alright we're done here - enough name-calling because you lack the facilities to craft an argument. Yes, I'm the dummy, the dummy who hoarded Jokic prizm bass for $1.50 per back when he was Nurkic' backup and people of your ilk were calling it 'Poopnini' because anything new/different scares you :)!

[QUOTE=daeve;19402686]:cry:

alright we're done here - enough name-calling because you lack the facilities to craft an argument. Yes, I'm the dummy, the dummy who hoarded Jokic prizm bass for $1.50 per back when he was Nurkic' backup and people of your ilk were calling it 'Poopnini' because anything new/different scares you :)![/QUOTE]



:cry: :cry: :cry:

Lose to Wembanyama

[QUOTE=yiguiri2002;19402436]It's hilarious people think he needs 4-5 titles to crack the Top 10.

He doesn't. How many people have won that many titles as the best player on their team? MJ, LeBron, Russell, Magic, TD, maybe Steph. 6 at best.

Also, peaks carry a lot of weight. Larry Legend's totals compared to the rest of the Top 10 aren't great but he was one of the Top 3 players in the game for almost a decade.[/QUOTE]



The issue I think he faces even against a guy like Shaq is the all-encompassing legacy. Humans aren't computers. We don't always rank solely based off binary statistics. Shaq anchored a Lakers dynasty and was/is a cultural phenom for the greater part of 2 decades.

If sports were only about numbers we wouldn't hold guys like Ali and MJ to near-mythical standards.

I do think Yoker has the capability of surprassing a guy like Hakeem in due time, but again...it's such a difficult 1 to 1 correlation. Hakeem was a top 5 defensive big of all time while mating it to one smoothest offensive games ever seen at the position.

You teleport a dude like Nikola to the 80's and 90's, and I don't even know if coaches would even begin to entertain the notion of rolling him out as a ball-dominant offensive facilitator. Completely different eras.


The bigger part of J's point is that all the guys in the top 10 already have the cumulative numbers but also teamed it with dynasty rings.

So it's absolutely fair to say he needs at least 2 more rings to even begin to spark any kind of legitimate discussion, because his counting stats are nowhere close to some of the others he'll be pitted against.


He's young enough to get there, but not everything is a guarantee, especially with bigs entering their 30's.


FWIW Shaq had 3 fmvp's. So it's very easy to make the argument he was the best and truly indispensable component on LA during their run.

[QUOTE=daeve;19402368]And I don't care if he doesn't fit your narrative of 'what a 5 is supposed to do'. Incredibly stupid argument you're forming here.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=the mesiah;19402415]You care enough to post dummy ,[/QUOTE]

he cares enough to post what's relevant to the thread subject, he cares about what makes for winning basketball whether or not a team's 5 is a top rim-protector

you OTOH led with your chin by neglecting to mention his assists, and then call names

To revise/update my earlier comments: first, do a simple eye-test of Joker's game against that of the other legends found on Hardwood Classics. Compare his production in the Finals/playoffs to, say, Shaq's 00-02 threepeat. Then do a timeline adjustment. Then differentiate between top players and top careers. (Longevity matters somewhat for the latter, but it should matter less and less the longer the numbers accumulate. LeBron's famous longevity hardly moves the needle if he isn't doing what usually counts the most in these rankings, which is getting rings. Note that Mr. Russell played all of 13 seasons to Bron's 21+)

Jokic doesn't yet have a top-10 career, I don't know about top 12. And it would obviously be idiotic not to take into account support/team factors such as the precarious Bubblemurray health situation; only an idiot could discount Joker for not having much of a playoff showing in '21 and '22. Only an idiot would fail to factor how much MJ was getting done without a matured Pippen, when we're piling on playoff accolades.

And it appears few folks are willing to put in anywhere near the kind of work/thought on these questions that a Bill James-level analyst does. The idea of not doing timeline adjustments in a well-defined way is ludicrous. People seem to grasp that as a basic concept when it comes to Mikan's 5 titles or Russell's 11, but I don't see a lot of rigor beyond that.

Lol!!! Says the guy who makes the most simplistic arguments on this board.
Jokic's first 9 seasons 21.0 PPG 10.7 RPG 6.9 APG
Oscar Robertson's first 10 seasons 29.3 PPG 8.5 RPG 10.3 APG

Jokic 3x All NBA 1st team Oscar 9x 1st team All NBA.

When you look at more than 2 cherry picked stats you see that Jokic is well short of top 10. He needs to keep doing what he is for several more years and maybe by the end of his career he will be in the discussion for top 10.


[QUOTE=GOATcards;19402923]he cares enough to post what's relevant to the thread subject, he cares about what makes for winning basketball whether or not a team's 5 is a top rim-protector

you OTOH led with your chin by neglecting to mention his assists, and then call names

To revise/update my earlier comments: first, do a simple eye-test of Joker's game against that of the other legends found on Hardwood Classics. Compare his production in the Finals/playoffs to, say, Shaq's 00-02 threepeat. Then do a timeline adjustment. Then differentiate between top players and top careers. (Longevity matters somewhat for the latter, but it should matter less and less the longer the numbers accumulate. LeBron's famous longevity hardly moves the needle if he isn't doing what usually counts the most in these rankings, which is getting rings. Note that Mr. Russell played all of 13 seasons to Bron's 21+)

Jokic doesn't yet have a top-10 career, I don't know about top 12. And it would obviously be idiotic not to take into account support/team factors such as the precarious Bubblemurray health situation; only an idiot could discount Joker for not having much of a playoff showing in '21 and '22. Only an idiot would fail to factor how much MJ was getting done without a matured Pippen, when we're piling on playoff accolades.

And it appears few folks are willing to put in anywhere near the kind of work/thought on these questions that a Bill James-level analyst does. The idea of not doing timeline adjustments in a well-defined way is ludicrous. People seem to grasp that as a basic concept when it comes to Mikan's 5 titles or Russell's 11, but I don't see a lot of rigor beyond that.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=rats60;19403143]Lol!!! Says the guy who makes the most simplistic arguments on this board.
Jokic's first 9 seasons 21.0 PPG 10.7 RPG 6.9 APG
Oscar Robertson's first 10 seasons 29.3 PPG 8.5 RPG 10.3 APG

Jokic 3x All NBA 1st team Oscar 9x 1st team All NBA.

When you look at more than 2 cherry picked stats you see that Jokic is well short of top 10. He needs to keep doing what he is for several more years and maybe by the end of his career he will be in the discussion for top 10.[/QUOTE]

Yes… let’s all go back to when leagues had less than half the amount of teams and therefore players…. It’s fun to reminisce, isn’t it?

[QUOTE=rats60;19403143]Lol!!! [B]Says the guy who makes the most simplistic arguments on this board.[/B]
Jokic's first 9 seasons 21.0 PPG 10.7 RPG 6.9 APG
Oscar Robertson's first 10 seasons 29.3 PPG 8.5 RPG 10.3 APG

Jokic 3x All NBA 1st team Oscar 9x 1st team All NBA.

When you look at more than [B]2 cherry picked stats[/B] you see that Jokic is well short of top 10. He needs to keep doing what he is for several more years and maybe by the end of his career he will be in the discussion for top 10.[/QUOTE]

projection

[QUOTE=TheVolta;19403145]Yes… let’s all go back to when leagues had less than half the amount of teams and therefore players…. It’s fun to reminisce, isn’t it?[/QUOTE]

it isn't merely less than half, it's just over one quarter of the number of teams in Oscar's prime compared to today. That's before doing any measuring of the quality of the talent pool. (No Serbians in the Oscar-era NBA. huh.)

an all-NBA selection when there were one quarter the number of teams, should carry about one quarter the weight of one today

that's part of doing timeline adjusting which many opinion-havers don't seem to want to get rigorous about

[QUOTE=rats60;19403143]Lol!!! Says the guy who makes the most simplistic arguments on this board.
Jokic's first 9 seasons 21.0 PPG 10.7 RPG 6.9 APG
Oscar Robertson's first 10 seasons 29.3 PPG 8.5 RPG 10.3 APG

Jokic 3x All NBA 1st team Oscar 9x 1st team All NBA.
[/quote]

My argument being very "simplistic" can be stated in nutshell form as: which player will help you win the most?

With those metrics you cite, Oscar must have led his team to a ring in that 8-team league? He must have won more MVPs than Jokic in that smaller league?

Next you're going to tell us that Wilt's 50 PPG season counts for as much as a 50 PPG season today? Sounds kinda simplistic, couldn't imagine a Bill James-level analyst making that kind of claim, but you are welcome to do you :cry:

[QUOTE=ninjacookies;19402808]The issue I think he faces even against a guy like Shaq is the all-encompassing legacy. Humans aren't computers. We don't always rank solely based off binary statistics. Shaq anchored a Lakers dynasty and was/is a cultural phenom for the greater part of 2 decades.

If sports were only about numbers we wouldn't hold guys like Ali and MJ to near-mythical standards.

I do think Yoker has the capability of surprassing a guy like Hakeem in due time, but again...it's such a difficult 1 to 1 correlation. Hakeem was a top 5 defensive big of all time while mating it to one smoothest offensive games ever seen at the position.

You teleport a dude like Nikola to the 80's and 90's, and I don't even know if coaches would even begin to entertain the notion of rolling him out as a ball-dominant offensive facilitator. Completely different eras.


The bigger part of J's point is that all the guys in the top 10 already have the cumulative numbers but also teamed it with dynasty rings.

So it's absolutely fair to say he needs at least 2 more rings to even begin to spark any kind of legitimate discussion, because his counting stats are nowhere close to some of the others he'll be pitted against.


He's young enough to get there, but not everything is a guarantee, especially with bigs entering their 30's.


FWIW Shaq had 3 fmvp's. So it's very easy to make the argument he was the best and truly indispensable component on LA during their run.[/QUOTE]

Sir...this is a Wendys - there is way too much logic in this post for a card forum

Top 10 in conversation? not sure.

IMO he may be top 10 but I feel in modern basketball, fans and media focus more on guards and forwards. Back then it was more about centers, then power forwards. Asides from Jokic and Wemby I don't see the media talking too much about bigs. Maybe Zion, and Anthony Davis but they tend to focus more on negativity.

[QUOTE=duron;19401819]Gotta love the seething going on with the NeW mEdiA

If credibility wasn’t shot already…[/QUOTE]

We all know why they hate Joker. We all know

Top players by award shares since the Jordan era, before the '23-24 season:

LeBron James 8.815
Shaquille O'Neal* 4.380
Tim Duncan* 4.278
Kobe Bryant* 4.202
James Harden 3.656
Giannis Antetokounmpo 3.511
Kevin Durant 3.210
Kevin Garnett* 2.753
Nikola Jokić 2.738
Stephen Curry 2.664
Steve Nash* 2.429
Joel Embiid 2.254

After this season Jokic is expected to rise to around 3.6 award shares which puts him in the top 7 since MJ.

Career playoff VORP-wise, Jokic is still well behind the likes of Tim, Shaq, Kobe (and they're all far behind Bron). Jokic's career playoff BPM is #2 all-time behind MJ.

Since the '21 season - more precisely, since Giannis's Finals win in '21 - Jokic has been widely touted as either the best or most valuable player. (Embiid doesn't log enough playing time for the most-valuable criterion.) 3 MVP wins (expected) over a 4 year stretch. For such a stretch of seasons, how many other players in NBA history could claim a similar distinction?

I guess he'd need at least one more ring (Finals MVP), or have a really good excuse for not winning another one, before he's solidly in the top-10 discussion. (In the discussion, not necessarily in the top 10 ranking.)

Adding: I'd say he's top 6 since the Jordan era (based on career so far), MJ makes 7, LarryMagicKareemWiltRussell makes 12. Half of the top 12 players being since MJ sounds about right with timeline-adjusting.

[QUOTE=imbluestreak23;19403492]We all know why they hate Joker. We all know[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d1/9c/34/d19c34a9adca5227d7a960c81764f541.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=boxbuster7;19403496][IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d1/9c/34/d19c34a9adca5227d7a960c81764f541.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

"...and a hook shot"

nice ball bouncing on the rim there

[QUOTE=yiguiri2002;19402285]We might be the only ones that don't have Kobe in our Top 10 lol

I have Hakeem, Kobe and then Chef. I think with a title and FMVP this year, Joker gets to the level just below it even if he retires afterwards.[/QUOTE]

Clealry you two know nothing about basketball or how to gauge skill. :doh:

[QUOTE=Hellcat;19403591]Clealry you two know nothing about basketball or how to gauge skill. :doh:[/QUOTE]



Him and his counterpart clearly don’t ..among others

[QUOTE=jcardstore;19402451]Who does he bump out of the top 10? I don’t have Kobe in my top 10 but Jokic isn’t even there yet. Gonna need at least 3 rings to pass Hakeem too[/QUOTE]

I don't think he'll need 3 to pass Hakeem. An MVP and FMVP with another 5 years playing at a high level and I think he passes Hakeem.

[QUOTE=drobfan8;19402463]I'm trying to find where anyone said he needs 5 titles to crack the top 10? :confused:

I think people seem to be counting Denver as champs this season, but it's pretty hard to go back to back. We shall see[/QUOTE]

I think it was from another thread. The 4 are from this thread.

[QUOTE=GOATcards;19403461]Next you're going to tell us that Wilt's 50 PPG season counts for as much as a 50 PPG season today? Sounds kinda simplistic, couldn't imagine a Bill James-level analyst making that kind of claim, but you are welcome to do you :cry:[/QUOTE]

Bill James top 5 baseball players of all time.

1. Babe Ruth
2. Honus Wagner
3. Willie Mays
4. Oscar Charleston
5. Ty Cobb

Looks like you are just wrong as usual.