American League MVP
 

I've been updating the Judge thread with the MVP stuff, but I think this race deserves its own thread.

I think it's still Judge, but Ohtani has been giving him a serious run for his money these past few days.

[QUOTE=rman112;18392597]I've been updating the Judge thread with the MVP stuff, but I think this race deserves its own thread.

I think it's still Judge, but Ohtani has been giving him a serious run for his money these past few days.[/QUOTE]

I still think unless Judge gets to 60+, it's Ohtani.

[QUOTE=rngrdanny22;18392598]I still think unless Judge gets to 60+, it's Ohtani.[/QUOTE]

59 HR with measurable WAR lead = Ohtani

60 HR with measurable WAR lead = Judge

It’s Judge, even without 60 HRs.

[QUOTE=Skipscards;18392603]It’s Judge, even without 60 HRs.[/QUOTE]

It's going to be interesting if Judge ends up the WAR leader. Because the same people that used the stat for Trout all those years will be willing to overlook it for Ohtani.

[QUOTE=rman112;18392601]59 HR with measurable WAR lead = Ohtani

60 HR with measurable WAR lead = Judge[/QUOTE]

Hey, you asked, and I answered.

Truthfully, I think he has to break the AL record, so 62+. That milestone would absolutely guarantee it.

Ohtani has a good shot at Top-5 for AL Cy Young. Add in the fact that he'll likely have 30+ HR's, and that's tough for Judge to overcome with hitting alone. We saw it last year with Guerrero and Ohtani was unanimous.

As of right now, Fangraphs has Judge at 8.0 WAR to Ohtani's 6.8. They are 1-2 in the AL. If that gap closes, I think the voters give Ohtani the nod because "nobody's done this since Babe Ruth".

Both fantastic players that deserve the award in nearly any given year. This one will likely depend on the writer's opinion and logic.

That said, anyone putting down the other player just because they want the other one to win is an idiot and should just go home. 50+ homers? 200Ks and 30+ HRs? Learn to appreciate the game - what a great year in baseball!

[QUOTE=rman112;18392609]It's going to be interesting if Judge ends up the WAR leader. Because the same people that used the stat for Trout all those years will be willing to overlook it for Ohtani.[/QUOTE]

True. And Ohtani is amazing. It’s possible I’m wrong, but sometimes the writers just like to spread things around. Funny thing is, even with time missed, Trout is having a pretty great season too. It’s a shame he missed so much time or he’d be right there.

[QUOTE=rman112;18392609]It's going to be interesting if Judge ends up the WAR leader. Because the same people that used the stat for Trout all those years will be willing to overlook it for Ohtani.[/QUOTE]

Trout doesn't play two ways. Bill James was not factoring or even thinking about a two-way player when he invented the metric. I'm not saying it sways the argument either way, but it's not that straight forward.

[QUOTE=Trueblue;18392627]Trout doesn't play two ways. Bill James was not factoring or even thinking about a two-way player when he invented the metric. I'm not saying it sways the argument either way, but it's not that straight forward.[/QUOTE]

It's still taking both his hitting and his pitching and adding them up.

[QUOTE=rngrdanny22;18392598]I still think unless Judge gets to 60+, it's Ohtani.[/QUOTE]

It’s going to be Judge and I fully understand how valuable Ohtani is as a pitcher and hitter.

[QUOTE=rman112;18392635]It's still taking both his hitting and his pitching and adding them up.[/QUOTE]

Yes, clearly. What about the extra roster spot? If your belief is that it adds no value, then fair enough.

[QUOTE=Trueblue;18392637]Yes, clearly. What about the extra roster spot? If your belief is that it adds no value, then fair enough.[/QUOTE]

Not sure it's that simple. If you go that route, wouldn't you also need to view the negatives? You lose the older, injury-prone guys like Rendon and Trout if they don't play the field.

[QUOTE=rman112;18392640]Not sure it's that simple. If you go that route, wouldn't you also need to view the negatives? You lose the older, injury-prone guys like Rendon and Trout if they don't play the field.[/QUOTE]

What you're advocating/saying is also exactly what I'm saying. Do you count the replacement roster member as a replacement level player or the actual player that got added in real life? It's simply not straightforward what that's worth. Is it enough to cover -3.0 WAR in variance? Obviously not, but it's worth noting.

Two seemingly great guys, on wildly different teams (success wise), both balling. This is going to be a fun finish to the season and was mentioned, Trouty would have a seat at the table if he didn't miss so much time.

[QUOTE=Trueblue;18392650]What you're advocating/saying is also exactly what I'm saying. Do you count the replacement roster member as a replacement level player or the actual player that got added in real life? It's simply not straightforward what that's worth. Is it enough to cover -3.0 WAR in variance? Obviously not, but it's worth noting.[/QUOTE]

That would seemingly open the can of worms of considering other factors besides only that player themselves.

[QUOTE=rman112;18392635]It's still taking both his hitting and his pitching and adding them up.[/QUOTE]

Yes…and? A DH gets dinged because he doesn’t play defense, why wouldn’t Ohtani get credit for being an incredible hitter and pitcher?

[QUOTE=rman112;18392658]That would seemingly open the can of worms of considering other factors besides only that player themselves.[/QUOTE]

Isn't that what WAR is? If everyone hit .300 with 30 homers and you did the same (Assuming neutral defense), you'd have 0 WAR.

[QUOTE=atk825;18392662]Yes…and? A DH gets dinged because he doesn’t play defense, why wouldn’t Ohtani get credit for being an incredible hitter and pitcher?[/QUOTE]

How is he not?

[QUOTE=Trueblue;18392663]Isn't that what WAR is? If everyone hit .300 with 30 homers and you did the same (Assuming neutral defense), you'd have 0 WAR.[/QUOTE]

Ah, Ok. I get what you're saying.

It should be Ohtani but likely will go to Judge. Voters will want to pick someone new and Judge is Yankee.

It would be different if Ohtani was doing average at both but he is a legit Top 5 pitcher while also being a Top 25 batter in the AL.

[QUOTE=rman112;18392667]How is he not?[/QUOTE]

He is. I may be confusing your point that just adding up pitching and hitting isn’t fair.

[QUOTE=Bcr;18392675]It should be Ohtani but likely will go to Judge. Voters will want to pick someone new and Judge is Yankee.

It would be different if Ohtani was doing average at both but he is a legit Top 5 pitcher while also being a Top 25 batter in the AL.[/QUOTE]

Top 25 batter in the AL? He's Top-7 or better in the AL in OPS, OPS+, wRC, HR, RBI. I'd say he's objectively a top-10 AL hitter.

[QUOTE=atk825;18392680]He is. I may be confusing your point that just adding up pitching and hitting isn’t fair.[/QUOTE]

Nah, I wasn't trying to say that.

Judge and its not close that roadside attraction ohtani got his lucky MVP last season.

[QUOTE=pete2345;18392692]Judge and its not close that roadside attraction ohtani got his lucky MVP last season.[/QUOTE]

Nothing says roadside attraction quite like repeating the elite performance.

[QUOTE=BabaORiley;18392681]Top 25 batter in the AL? He's Top-7 or better in the AL in OPS, OPS+, wRC, HR, RBI. I'd say he's objectively a top-10 AL hitter.[/QUOTE]

I was going off of his WAR on Fangraphs, but I don't disagree.

[QUOTE=atk825;18392694]Nothing says roadside attraction quite like repeating the elite performance.[/QUOTE]

Will he be playing in the postseason?

To me I think it's Judge right now, but it's so hard to argue if Ohtani finishes top 3 in AL HR, and top 7-8 in OPS. He's not there yet, and has work to do, but a top 7-8 hitter with his pitching #s, that value is hard to beat. OPS for the final 34 games needs to be 900+ to finish strong.

[QUOTE=imbluestreak23;18392703]To me I think it's Judge right now, but it's so hard to argue if Ohtani finishes top 3 in AL HR, and top 7-8 in OPS. He's not there yet, and has work to do, but a top 7-8 hitter with his pitching #s, that value is hard to beat. OPS for the final 34 games needs to be 900+ to finish strong.[/QUOTE]

I think pitching is where Ohtani will need to make his mark. He's not going to touch Judge offensively, but a few more outings like he had the other day and things get REALLY interesting.

It's Judge's to lose.

[QUOTE=pete2345;18392692]Judge and its not close that roadside attraction ohtani got his lucky MVP last season.[/QUOTE]Screams insecure. Nothing wrong with two great players competing.

[QUOTE=Trueblue;18392709]Screams insecure. Nothing wrong with two great players competing.[/QUOTE]


TrueBlue, meet Pete.

Pete, TrueBlue.

Pete didn't like Patty either. Repulsed by greatness.

[QUOTE=pete2345;18392700]Will he be playing in the postseason?[/QUOTE]

It’s a regular season award. The postseason has nothing to do with MVP

[QUOTE=Trueblue;18392637]Yes, clearly. What about the extra roster spot? If your belief is that it adds no value, then fair enough.[/QUOTE]

This is actually an interesting question because of how bad the angels are (17 position players with a negative war) and you could actually make the hilarious argument that adding an extra roster spot for say Joe Adell is worth - WAR because now Joe Adell is in the majors.

Hard to go wrong for either guy, the real travesty will be if any other player gets a 2nd place vote and these 2 just so far ahead of ramirez or whomever

[QUOTE=Trueblue;18392627]Trout doesn't play two ways. Bill James was not factoring or even thinking about a two-way player when he invented the metric. I'm not saying it sways the argument either way, but it's not that straight forward.[/QUOTE]

Bill James didn’t invent WAR; Sean Smith did (Keith Woolner technically created it’s precursor VORP) and Tom Tango gave us the current base model. In fact, Bill frequently questions it. But WAR’s creation was absolutely designed to account for pitching and hitting (and defense for that matter). Ohtani is not the first player to pitch well and hit well… Babe Ruth, Wes Ferrell, Rick Ankiel, etc. When any value metric is created, one of the first things you do is see how it measures Ruth. :)

[QUOTE=rngrdanny22;18392614]Truthfully, I think he has to break the AL record, so 62+. That milestone would absolutely guarantee it.

[/QUOTE] This is my thinking too. I'll agree on they like to spread things around sometimes but I don't think they'd have any issues with Ohtani winning back to back years with how he has played. Judge is a great story and I hope he does break the record but if he doesn't the story finish isn't a happy ending.

It also hurts Judge that the Yankees have slipped a bit. If they were still dominating and leading the league in the win column then it would be hard to vote against Judge. Voters could easily say that he is leading his team to victory. But it will be much closer now and especially if he doesn't hit 60+ HR

Hopefully Judge's power shoulder holds up.

[QUOTE=BostonNut;18393162]Hopefully Judge's power shoulder holds up.[/QUOTE]

Old useless joke, maybe Devers can get back in the mvp race.;):D

[QUOTE=spuds1961;18393179]Old useless joke, maybe Devers can get back in the mvp race.;):D[/QUOTE]

That's true. Clearly you can be in the race even on a crap team.

Call me a homer but not sure why JRam doesn't get more attention for MVP.

[QUOTE=Chris Lyle;18393244]Call me a homer but not sure why JRam doesn't get more attention for MVP.[/QUOTE]

His stats are definitely worthy but playing in Cleveland hurts him from being recognized, they are the most under the radar first in their division team in Major League Baseball.

[QUOTE=rngrdanny22;18392598]I still think unless Judge gets to 60+, it's Ohtani.[/QUOTE]

Are you dreaming?
Have you seen the odds?

Judge is -800 to win.

I’d love for LA to get rid of Trout and Ohtani and then win the WS.

Kind of like what Washington did with Harper.

Ohtani has been every bit as good as he was last year. Perhaps slightly lesser offensively, but has taken a step forward on the mound. I simply don't see how shouldn't win MVP in a landslide every single year as long as he continues to be a great player on both sides of the ball. It literally shouldn't matter what any other player does until someone else that plays both ways at a high level comes along

That's taking absolutely nothing away from Judge. He's having a historic season and has been the best hitter in the AL. But Ohtani is what, top 10 minimum best hitter in the AL this year? AND a top 5 pitcher in the AL? Pfft. It should be another blowout

It feels like we (in general) are already losing sight of how absolutely incredible it is that Ohtani is able to do what he does, and emblematic of society's tendency to so quickly move on to the next thing. I wouldn't be surprised if Judge won - Chasing 60/Maris, leading what has been perhaps the best team in baseball, New York bias. He has the headlines and attention, while Ohtani wastes away on the inept Angels, and he just had his big nationwide spotlight last year. But I also wouldn't be surprised if Ohtani wins in a blowout. The storyline last year was all about how unprecedented what Ohtani did was. And he follows that up with another season that's been just as good? Why should this year be any different?

[QUOTE=Hollywood42;18393306]Ohtani has been every bit as good as he was last year. Perhaps slightly lesser offensively, but has taken a step forward on the mound. I simply don't see how shouldn't win MVP in a landslide every single year as long as he continues to be a great player on both sides of the ball. It literally shouldn't matter what any other player does until someone else that plays both ways at a high level comes along

That's taking absolutely nothing away from Judge. He's having a historic season and has been the best hitter in the AL. But Ohtani is what, top 10 minimum best hitter in the AL this year? AND a top 5 pitcher in the AL? Pfft. It should be another blowout

It feels like we (in general) are already losing sight of how absolutely incredible it is that Ohtani is able to do what he does, and emblematic of society's tendency to so quickly move on to the next thing. I wouldn't be surprised if Judge won - Chasing 60/Maris, leading what has been perhaps the best team in baseball, New York bias. He has the headlines and attention, while Ohtani wastes away on the inept Angels, and he just had his big nationwide spotlight last year. But I also wouldn't be surprised if Ohtani wins in a blowout. The storyline last year was all about how unprecedented what Ohtani did was. And he follows that up with another season that's been just as good? Why should this year be any different?[/QUOTE]

Well, Judge has already pretty much outperformed Guerrero last year, for starters. And there's like 7 weeks left in the season. And Judge was ahead of Ohtan's entire 2021 in WAR before 2 bad games.

[QUOTE=Hollywood42;18393306]Ohtani has been every bit as good as he was last year. Perhaps slightly lesser offensively, but has taken a step forward on the mound. I simply don't see how shouldn't win MVP in a landslide every single year as long as he continues to be a great player on both sides of the ball. It literally shouldn't matter what any other player does until someone else that plays both ways at a high level comes along

That's taking absolutely nothing away from Judge. He's having a historic season and has been the best hitter in the AL. But Ohtani is what, top 10 minimum best hitter in the AL this year? AND a top 5 pitcher in the AL? Pfft. It should be another blowout

It feels like we (in general) are already losing sight of how absolutely incredible it is that Ohtani is able to do what he does, and emblematic of society's tendency to so quickly move on to the next thing. I wouldn't be surprised if Judge won - Chasing 60/Maris, leading what has been perhaps the best team in baseball, New York bias. He has the headlines and attention, while Ohtani wastes away on the inept Angels, and he just had his big nationwide spotlight last year. But I also wouldn't be surprised if Ohtani wins in a blowout. The storyline last year was all about how unprecedented what Ohtani did was. And he follows that up with another season that's been just as good? Why should this year be any different?[/QUOTE]


Ohtani is a generational talent no doubt but to say that a 2 way player has to come along and top him or he should basically be handed the MVP is a stretch.

[QUOTE=spuds1961;18393266]His stats are definitely worthy but playing in Cleveland hurts him from being recognized, they are the most under the radar first in their division team in Major League Baseball.[/QUOTE]

I get the whole recognition problem, but what JRam does for that team and them being in first is the text book definition of what the MVP should be about. Look at this way if JRam doesn't sign the extension and the front office decides to move him while they can for a better package, the Guards are playing Nolan Jones at 3b and probably would've moved other players in deals and not be in first by a long shot.

[QUOTE=Chris Lyle;18393330]Ohtani is a generational talent no doubt but to say that a 2 way player has to come along and top him or he should basically be handed the MVP is a stretch.[/QUOTE]

2001 Bonds < 2022 Ohtani (because Bonds didn't pitch)

[QUOTE=Hollywood42;18393306]Ohtani has been every bit as good as he was last year. Perhaps slightly lesser offensively, but has taken a step forward on the mound. I simply don't see how shouldn't win MVP in a landslide every single year as long as he continues to be a great player on both sides of the ball. It literally shouldn't matter what any other player does until someone else that plays both ways at a high level comes along

That's taking absolutely nothing away from Judge. He's having a historic season and has been the best hitter in the AL. But Ohtani is what, top 10 minimum best hitter in the AL this year? AND a top 5 pitcher in the AL? Pfft. It should be another blowout

It feels like we (in general) are already losing sight of how absolutely incredible it is that Ohtani is able to do what he does, and emblematic of society's tendency to so quickly move on to the next thing. I wouldn't be surprised if Judge won - Chasing 60/Maris, leading what has been perhaps the best team in baseball, New York bias. He has the headlines and attention, while Ohtani wastes away on the inept Angels, and he just had his big nationwide spotlight last year. But I also wouldn't be surprised if Ohtani wins in a blowout. The storyline last year was all about how unprecedented what Ohtani did was. And he follows that up with another season that's been just as good? Why should this year be any different?[/QUOTE]Some Ohtani fatigue I think.

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[QUOTE=rman112;18393339]2001 Bonds < 2022 Ohtani (because Bonds didn't pitch)[/QUOTE]

IMO the whole 2 way should not come into play when talking about the MVP, overall greatness yes, MVP every season no. If Bonds were clean and still had the season he did in 01 he shouldn't be behind Ohtani for that season just because Ohtani pitched.

[QUOTE=Chris Lyle;18393345]IMO the whole 2 way should not come into play when talking about the MVP, overall greatness yes, MVP every season no. If Bonds were clean and still had the season he did in 01 he shouldn't be behind Ohtani for that season just because Ohtani pitched.[/QUOTE]

Ohtani's producing. The major difference is his competiion this year is way better.

[QUOTE=Chris Lyle;18393336]I get the whole recognition problem, but what JRam does for that team and them being in first is the text book definition of what the MVP should be about. Look at this way if JRam doesn't sign the extension and the front office decides to move him while they can for a better package, the Guards are playing Nolan Jones at 3b and probably would've moved other players in deals and not be in first by a long shot.[/QUOTE]

Hey if the Guardians don’t sign him I know a team in New York that would love the upgrade at the third base position. I agree take Ramirez out of the lineup the Guardian’s are a below .500 team, take Judge out of the Yankees lineup and they are .500 at best, take Ohtani out of the Angels lineup and they are a below .500 team oh wait they still are.:D

[QUOTE=rman112;18393353]Ohtani's producing. The major difference is his competiion this year is way better.[/QUOTE]

And see that is where you IMO you can't compare seasons. We just don't know competition, etc. and where did I say Ohtani isn't producing? I am just saying that the 2-way piece of the conversation shouldn't put his season above another, just for that season.

[QUOTE=spuds1961;18393355]Hey if the Guardians don’t sign him I know a team in New York that would love the upgrade at the third base position. I agree take Ramirez out of the lineup the Guardian’s are a below .500 team, take Judge out of the Yankees lineup and they are .500 at best, take Ohtani out of the Angels lineup and they are a below .500 team oh wait they still are.:D[/QUOTE]

Sorry he signed a huge extension with a full no trade clause and very team friendly that was part of my point. I think if you take the overall team of the Guards versus Yankees and Angels, JRam is much more important to the team than the other to there team, even though Ohtani is obviously closer IMO.

[QUOTE=Hollywood42;18393306]Ohtani has been every bit as good as he was last year. Perhaps slightly lesser offensively, but has taken a step forward on the mound. I simply don't see how shouldn't win MVP in a landslide every single year as long as he continues to be a great player on both sides of the ball. It literally shouldn't matter what any other player does until someone else that plays both ways at a high level comes along

That's taking absolutely nothing away from Judge. He's having a historic season and has been the best hitter in the AL. But Ohtani is what, top 10 minimum best hitter in the AL this year? AND a top 5 pitcher in the AL? Pfft. It should be another blowout

It feels like we (in general) are already losing sight of how absolutely incredible it is that Ohtani is able to do what he does, and emblematic of society's tendency to so quickly move on to the next thing. I wouldn't be surprised if Judge won - Chasing 60/Maris, leading what has been perhaps the best team in baseball, New York bias. He has the headlines and attention, while Ohtani wastes away on the inept Angels, and he just had his big nationwide spotlight last year. But I also wouldn't be surprised if Ohtani wins in a blowout. The storyline last year was all about how unprecedented what Ohtani did was. And he follows that up with another season that's been just as good? Why should this year be any different?[/QUOTE]

I guess it might also depend on how much we think WAR should be a metric of success, or not. Judge is >1 WAR higher than Ohtani at this point (for those trying to add Batting + Pitching, remember to remove the overlapping WAR added in Pitching). Ohtani is having a great year, and will probably finish 2nd in WAR if both he and Judge keep going on their current pace, but he'd still be 2nd.

Does anyone know which WAR metric the writers weigh the most (if any)?

Fangraphs (Judge 7.9, Ohtani 7.0) and Baseballreference (Judge 7.4, Ohtani 7.0) paint a slightly different picture.

Does anyone know the numbers on Ohtani's extra AB's this year because of the new rule?

If you're a GM and you were promised both players performances from this year...which player are you taking? Not talking contracts, age, fan appeal, etc. Flat out, which player are you taking based on their stats/performance this year?

Ohtani is tied for 3rd in hr in al and 5th in ks among pitchers. If Judge finishes strong I still think the award is his to lose but let's not pretend what ohtani is doing is no big deal.

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[QUOTE=SupermanBrandon;18393393]If you're a GM and you were promised both players performances from this year...which player are you taking? Not talking contracts, age, fan appeal, etc. Flat out, which player are you taking based on their stats/performance this year?[/QUOTE]

That would be determined by team need more than likely.

Now if you're the Yankees, the answer is both. They have Judge and offered him a very good contract for his age and they tried to trade for Ohtaini at the deadline but then the Angels took him off the block (possibly because of the sale).

The curious thing would have been if the Yankees were successful in trading for Ohtaini, depending on the package that went to the Angels, his days of DH may have been very limited to non-existent considering the Yankees like to use the DH role to rest older veterans and/or park Stanton there.

[QUOTE=Trueblue;18393385]Does anyone know which WAR metric the writers weigh the most (if any)?

Fangraphs (Judge 7.9, Ohtani 7.0) and Baseballreference (Judge 7.4, Ohtani 7.0) paint a slightly different picture.[/QUOTE]

I'd have to look at it more closely, but I think Fangraphs has Ohtani's offensive WAR at 3.0. And something like ~20% of his playing days are those he pitches, where he also bats. Thus something like 0.6 of his WAR gets double counted, because Fangraphs includes the batting war on days pitched also in the pitching WAR. Thus his combined fWAR should be something like 6.3.

RE: baseball reference, remember they use OPS+ as an input to offensive WAR. And that metric tends to over value players with high SLG. In general I'd discourage using bWAR for batting. And I have no opinion on their pitching, but have heard others make similar complaints for bWAR pitching.

I dont know who is going to get it. There are some valid arguments for both (and really bad ones too).

Both players are the focus of my modern PC, so I'm just going to sit back and enjoy September and October. My two dudes are killing it.

[QUOTE=pewe;18393612]I'd have to look at it more closely, but I think Fangraphs has Ohtani's offensive WAR at 3.0. And something like ~20% of his playing days are those he pitches, where he also bats. Thus something like 0.6 of his WAR gets double counted, because Fangraphs includes the batting war on days pitched also in the pitching WAR. Thus his combined fWAR should be something like 6.3.

RE: baseball reference, remember they use OPS+ as an input to offensive WAR. And that metric tends to over value players with high SLG. In general I'd discourage using bWAR for batting. And I have no opinion on their pitching, but have heard others make similar complaints for bWAR pitching.[/QUOTE]

Hitting and pitching war use completely different stats, how is it being double counted?

[QUOTE=JRX;18393618]Hitting and pitching war use completely different stats, how is it being double counted?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Trueblue;18393630]+1, I'm not sure why his WAR would be double counted on days he pitches.

I think the one thing that seems consensus is that WAR itself varies based on source and is very important but not 100% - everything.[/QUOTE]

fWAR pitching WAR includes the results from batting on the days pitched.

[QUOTE=JRX;18393618]Hitting and pitching war use completely different stats, how is it being double counted?[/QUOTE]

+1, I'm not sure why his WAR would be double counted on days he pitches.

I think the one thing that seems consensus is that WAR itself varies based on source and is very important but not 100% - everything.

My gut feeling ...

This will be the year that playoff team vs non-playoff team will matter to voters. Yankees are great, Angels are terrible.

Is it right or wrong? Not for me to say. But Judge wins in a landslide.

Just my take. Signed, Random Guy on the Interwebz

It feels like they're neck-and-neck right now and it will all come down to the last month of the season, but it seems like the Vegas odds just keep diverging in Judge's favor so what do I know.

[QUOTE=pewe;18393622]fWAR pitching WAR includes the results from batting on the days pitched.[/QUOTE]

I don't see that anywhere in there glossary. NL pitchers do have hitting war for past seasons though the glossary is also unclear how hitting war is calculated for pitchers. My guess is that its in relation to other hitting pitchers back when they all hit.

[QUOTE=calculusdork;18393641]My gut feeling ...

This will be the year that playoff team vs non-playoff team will matter to voters. Yankees are great, Angels are terrible.

Is it right or wrong? Not for me to say. But Judge wins in a landslide.

Just my take. Signed, Random Guy on the Interwebz[/QUOTE]

As it should be what value do you bring to a team when they don't even sniff the playoffs. Ohtani and trout should have 0 mvps they add no value to their team.

If the Angels had the record that the Orioles have Ohtani would be my pick.
But if the angels were to lose every remaining game with Ohtani going OFF and Judge slumps he Ohtani will win even though it makes no sense

[QUOTE=JRX;18393648]I don't see that anywhere in there glossary. NL pitchers do have hitting war for past seasons though the glossary is also unclear how hitting war is calculated for pitchers. My guess is that its in relation to other hitting pitchers back when they all hit.[/QUOTE]

Its possible they updated it to now exclude it, but my guess is they didn't build a custom model for Ohtani alone.

Why? To make this change will cost them real development time and effort. Given the dire financial straights I think Fangraphs has been in they will probably struggle to prioritize that time/cost for one player. And they will probably leave the existing approach in place for the time being.

That is until they do, and make a splashy announcement about it to help drive eyeballs. But until they do that splashy announcement, I'm betting they still have the old model in place.