HGA grading
 

Has anyone tried this new grading company that doesnt seem to be as subjective as all the rest and uses what seems like a computer generated scanning program.
Cant find any sales of their graded cards.

[url]https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1438620[/url]

There’s been a few sales on eBay that went higher than I expected. It’ll be a while before they’ll be accepted like BGS/SGC, but so far they’re delivering on lead times by not accepting all submissions, they have a set amount they’ll accept each week to stay on time.

[QUOTE=kabrune2;16977328]There’s been a few sales on eBay that went higher than I expected. It’ll be a while before they’ll be accepted like BGS/SGC, but so far they’re delivering on lead times by not accepting all submissions, they have a set amount they’ll accept each week to stay on time.[/QUOTE]

How much are they paying you to pump their product?

The more REPUTABLE TPGs the better.

I have not been Impressed with their customer service. It took over 4 days to answer an email when they claim to have better service than the competitors and then they couldn’t answer my questions. Seemed very robotic. I should also mention that I tried to call them several times and no one ever answered and didn’t have a voicemail? Very odd...

My question is the pricing, if they are using technology to cut out some of the graders then why would it cost more? It seems like a good idea if you could pay 5-10 bucks for initial scan to see if a card is worth grading and then pay the higher amount to send it in, kind of like the quick scan autograph opinion.. if it was 10-15 bucks I would try it out

Why not?
 

[QUOTE=ArmyDC;16979091]My question is the pricing, if they are using technology to cut out some of the graders then why would it cost more? It seems like a good idea if you could pay 5-10 bucks for initial scan to see if a card is worth grading and then pay the higher amount to send it in, kind of like the quick scan autograph opinion.. if it was 10-15 bucks I would try it out[/QUOTE]

Why is everyone complaining about the pricing? We're talking about grading cards. We have had no problem paying PSA/BGS/SGC what they ask, and for years, they have not been able to meet their specified times.

HGA comes along with AI and a system that allows them to GUARANTEE their times. I'm going to try them out. What do you I have to lose? Absolutely NOTHING.

I send in 25 cards,
WORST case scenario, I get 25 cards slabbed. I'm going to submit with a few people, so my costs will be around $500, and I will get the cards back within 30 days. I have submitted tons of cards, so I feel that my experience will get me the normal grades of 9-10.
MIDDLE case scenario: If I were to send these cards into PSA, I wouldn't get them back until the NFL Season kicks off, when who knows what their values will be then.
BEST case scenario. I try out a new company, which based on the provided information, sounds really good. They use "Technology" to grade the cards, not people. I get the cards back before Opening Day of the 2021 MLB Season. I flip two of the cards to pay for my fees, and I re-evaluate my position.

I ask, what do I have to lose?

Also, toss in that you can actually choose the label types. Whether you want it to match the Team or match the Card. For example, I'm submitting a Bowman Chrome Alec Bohm Gold. I'm going to have the label match the Card, rather than the team. That should be cool. Submitting some 2018/19 Chrome Pinks. Pink labels should look sweet!

[QUOTE=messier2;16977380]How much are they paying you to pump their product?[/QUOTE]

How about you talk about what you know instead of taking out of your behind.

[QUOTE=Troutstanding;16984893]Why is everyone complaining about the pricing? We're talking about grading cards. We have had no problem paying PSA/BGS/SGC what they ask, and for years, they have not been able to meet their specified times.

HGA comes along with AI and a system that allows them to GUARANTEE their times. I'm going to try them out. [B]What do you I have to lose[/B]? Absolutely NOTHING.

I send in 25 cards,
WORST case scenario, I get 25 cards slabbed. I'm going to submit with a few people, so my costs will be around $500, and I will get the cards back within 30 days. I have submitted tons of cards, so I feel that my experience will get me the normal grades of 9-10.
MIDDLE case scenario: If I were to send these cards into PSA, I wouldn't get them back until the NFL Season kicks off, when who knows what their values will be then.
BEST case scenario. I try out a new company, which based on the provided information, sounds really good. They use "Technology" to grade the cards, not people. I get the cards back before Opening Day of the 2021 MLB Season. I flip two of the cards to pay for my fees, and I re-evaluate my position.

I ask, [B]what do I have to lose[/B]?

Also, toss in that you can actually choose the label types. Whether you want it to match the Team or match the Card. For example, I'm submitting a Bowman Chrome Alec Bohm Gold. I'm going to have the label match the Card, rather than the team. That should be cool. Submitting some 2018/19 Chrome Pinks. Pink labels should look sweet![/QUOTE]

Money? Seeing as there is a difference in selling price between a PSA 9 and SGC/BGS 9...and a greater drop to KSA and further to GAI/Gem...money is what you have to lose

[QUOTE=i4gotmyid;16986708]Money? Seeing as there is a difference in selling price between a PSA 9 and SGC/BGS 9...and a greater drop to KSA and further to GAI/Gem...money is what you have to lose[/QUOTE]

Not according to current sold listings. Look at what the HGA 9.5 Robert sold for compared to what the PSA 10 sells for at auction prices, not BIN/BO. I could grade and sell a Robert 5 different times through HGA before I get one back from PSA.

DISCLAIMER: No I have not submitted any to HGA but I will test them out IF i can get actually get a slot. I hear it is very difficult to actually submit cards. Sold out this week in about one minute. I hope they don't have to deal with bots taking up all the spots.

I’d take them a lot more seriously if they got the spelling right on the labels. I am pretty sure the “AI” on my word processor circa 1997 would’ve caught “saphire”. [IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210214/903c5b5e515b1f607da7b52de99f7563.jpg[/IMG]


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Anyone figured out, or heard, what type of "AI" they are using?

Or is it just a marketing ploy?

Best I can tell, this is just GMA in a pretty package. How many employees do they have? Are they also located in a basement?

I've never use them but I just watched a video about how the customer enters exactly what the card is and I can see that is where the spelling of sapphire came from.

[QUOTE=rngrdanny22;16993544]Anyone figured out, or heard, what type of "AI" they are using?

Or is it just a marketing ploy?

Best I can tell, this is just GMA in a pretty package. How many employees do they have? Are they also located in a basement?[/QUOTE]

Adobe Illustrator?

What I have noticed is they haven’t developed a simple online database to search for information about a particular card, they have not published anything on their website about their grading standards, and there is no anti-counterfeiting technology for their slabs. I was hopeful that the QR code on the back would serve some purpose, but it looks like it just points to their website. We also know very little about the protection their slab provides against UV, moisture, etc.

Given all that I’m guessing they aren’t actively using services like Google Vision AI or Amazon Rekognition to support development of sophisticated neural networks for discerning the condition of sports cards.

They do have a modern label design that seems to be appealing to some. They also have spent a decent amount of time creating a social media presence.

[QUOTE=Iiicalypso;16992967]I’d take them a lot more seriously if they got the spelling right on the labels. I am pretty sure the “AI” on my word processor circa 1997 would’ve caught “saphire”. [IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210214/903c5b5e515b1f607da7b52de99f7563.jpg[/IMG]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

I caught that too when I was looking at their cards on Ebay...I was also kinda stumped by the 10 centering grade, when I can see with my eyes that the right border is wider than the left...I would think a 10, using A.I., would mean 50/50...but then again, they don't have any grading info on their site that I am aware of

Here's another one...

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuX7RxSXYAE8XeA?format=jpg&name=large[/IMG]
[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EuX7RxUXAAwamGD?format=jpg&name=large[/IMG]


[url]https://twitter.com/trade_buy_sell/status/1361770752064782338[/url]

So, again, what is this "artificial intelligence" they are using?

The McGwire is visibly diamond cut and OC. Might be within 65/35 though just eye balling it. The corner looks jacked and the edges might have some chipping. I guess they also round 9.375 up and call it a 9.5. Doesn't seem right when you have two 9 grades.

Well, between the misspelling on Sapphire and that McGwire getting a 9.5, I guess I can close the book on trying to get a submission sent in the first 15 seconds they are available each week. I'm still hopeful, but those are major red flags if they are priding themselves on turnaround time and only accepting so many submissions each week to get it right.

Psa grading fake cards atleast they haven’t don’t a fake grade or trimmed yet. Psa is just awful and now u have to wait a year to get your cards back give me a break.

I think the grade is for the back of the card!!

[IMG]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/TbIAAOSwt9JgLBxy/s-l1600.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=KepCards;16995184]I caught that too when I was looking at their cards on Ebay...I was also kinda stumped by the 10 centering grade, when I can see with my eyes that the right border is wider than the left...I would think a 10, using A.I., would mean 50/50...but then again, they don't have any grading info on their site that I am aware of[/QUOTE]


In regards to the centering, they’ve stated on Facebook that they have their grading standard for centering set for 60/40, same as psa. If they get something 50/50, that is where the 10 and flawless grades come in. I can’t speak to your other concerns, but that’s what they said about that one.


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[QUOTE=alphaomegas;17002849]Psa grading fake cards atleast they haven’t don’t a fake grade or trimmed yet. Psa is just awful and now u have to wait a year to get your cards back give me a break.[/QUOTE]

Tell us how you really feel...

The seller took this turkey down......

[IMG]https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MjQ1WDYxOQ==/z/GqgAAOSw1EFgLJD-/$_57.PNG?set_id=8800005007[/IMG]

Maybe that corner damage may have occurred during encasement ;) and HGA's 9 centering standard is 70/30!

It just amazes me that there are millions upon millions of dollars on offer for anyone who can actually put together an outfit that can grade cards with a reasonable degree of accuracy, and nobody seems capable of doing it.

This isn't like unlocking the secret to cold fusion. You get the card, you measure the card, you look it over, and if there are no obvious defects it gets a 10. If there's one minor defect that a buyer probably won't detect at first glance, but that they can detect after a reasonably careful examination, it gets a 9.

Rinse, wash, repeat. Eighty percent of the guys on this board are, I am sure, capable of doing this, yet there don't appear to be any entrepreneurs who want to assemble a crew of 15 guys who possess this basic skill and launch a company.

[QUOTE=CheapThief;17004261]yet there don't appear to be any entrepreneurs who want to assemble a crew of 15 guys who possess this basic skill and launch a company.[/QUOTE]
It really is that simple isn’t it?! (Is my eye roll audible from there?)

[QUOTE=salthill;17004286]It really is that simple isn’t it?! (Is my eye roll audible from there?)[/QUOTE]

No, but it's simple enough. I've been grading cards for 21 years, and in that time not a single company has entered the market that's established any sort of long-term credibility. That's a really, really long time considering the possible rewards.

Well let me know when CheapThief Grading is available for submissions. I might give them a try. If you've seen the list floating around, you'd realize that there are between 50-100 different grading companies that have given this a try. The fact that none of them are perfect just goes to show how difficult the job is.

Take grading for what it is, an opinion that in many cases has inherent value to it. If you agree with that opinion and the card looks aesthetically pleasing to you, then purchase the card. If not, then move on. Too many people want to armchair quarterback the hobby as if they are the expert, but apparently are too inept to really do anything about it.

Why start your own grading company when you can grade cards yourself, make better money, and keep your day job?

[QUOTE=rngrdanny22;16993544]Anyone figured out, or heard, what type of "AI" they are using?

Or is it just a marketing ploy?

Best I can tell, this is just GMA in a pretty package. How many employees do they have? Are they also located in a basement?[/QUOTE]

That's what I think as well. They say they are developing (as not yet in place) technology but aren't transparent for how the cards are actually graded. If they had software up and running you would think they would provide some examples on their website. They don't. And what are the criteria for their grading cut-offs?

[QUOTE=KepCards;16995184]I caught that too when I was looking at their cards on Ebay...I was also kinda stumped by the 10 centering grade, when I can see with my eyes that the right border is wider than the left...I would think a 10, using A.I., would mean 50/50...but then again, they don't have any grading info on their site that I am aware of[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily, if they set the cut-off at 55/45 or 60/40.

I do wish them luck, but until their re-sell prices begin to consistently touch the numbers of PSA I will not send a single card to them. Fancy case or not, it is still about ROI. If a person likes the case, but know going on the ROI might be half that of PSA, great! When prices continue to lag later on, there is no need to complain about how much lower prices are. Some might say trying this new company “what do you have to lose?” My money!

[QUOTE=rngrdanny22;16993544]Anyone figured out, or heard, what type of "AI" they are using?

Or is it just a marketing ploy?

Best I can tell, this is just GMA in a pretty package. How many employees do they have? Are they also located in a basement?[/QUOTE]

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it...you come into a market desperately seeking transparency. You claim you are changing the game w/ AI technology. Yet the only thing we've seen are "sick, dope" labels. Marketing 101 says you lead w/ your big 900lb gorilla...the AI. Show it off. Show it working. Give social content around it. Yet, we have nothing. Barely a mention of it. Then you have errors of mis-spelled names, wrong labels, subs not adding correctly, and encasing errors. As others have said...you can't even get your computers talking to each other to print the right labels. How in the world did you build game changing AI grading technology?

[QUOTE=SupermanBrandon;17006077]I've said it before and I'll keep saying it...you come into a market desperately seeking transparency. You claim you are changing the game w/ AI technology. Yet the only thing we've seen are "sick, dope" labels. Marketing 101 says you lead w/ your big 900lb gorilla...the AI. Show it off. Show it working. Give social content around it. Yet, we have nothing. Barely a mention of it. Then you have errors of mis-spelled names, wrong labels, subs not adding correctly, and encasing errors. As others have said...you can't even get your computers talking to each other to print the right labels. How in the world did you build game changing AI grading technology?[/QUOTE]


They primarily communicate through Facebook it seems, so if you aren’t following them there you won’t see the answers to these questions. They’ve stated there that they are using programming currently set to 60/40 for gem centering (the same standard psa uses for centering). They said that they could make it tighter, but if they did it would be less gem grades overall, which is what a lot of people SAY they want, but then when the time comes they don’t really want it because it drives down the value of the card (see SGC 9.5 selling for around the sale or less as a PSA 9 for example). They counter this by having two grades above a gem, just like BGS does, to reward cards with true 50/50 centering. They just put out a statement on the McGwire tonight that I’ll post screenshots of.


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[QUOTE=The_Reverend;17005355]I do wish them luck, but until their re-sell prices begin to consistently touch the numbers of PSA I will not send a single card to them. Fancy case or not, it is still about ROI. If a person likes the case, but know going on the ROI might be half that of PSA, great! When prices continue to lag later on, there is no need to complain about how much lower prices are. Some might say trying this new company “what do you have to lose?” My money![/QUOTE]


If you’re looking for resale prices, they are consistently close or equal to PSA pricing on most of their cards that have gone to auction so far. The biggest missed I’ve seen when comparing them to PSA are from people setting BiN prices too low and people jump on them. There were two HGA auctions I saw end tonight, one was a Herbert rookie debut color that ended at about 82% of the most recent PSA green debut camp, but a bit closer if you’re comparing it to all PSA debut color gem 10 sales that are more recent than that gem 10 green from PSA.

The other is a Joe Burrow Mosaic Pink Camo prizm. That one ended 95% of the most recent PSA 10 comp, so even better. You also have to keep in mind that the turnaround time for HGA is substantially faster, and time is money. If you don’t have your cards, you can’t sell your cards and PSA keeps them longer and BGS and SGC aren’t currently comping as close to PSA as HGA is.


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[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210218/460f305a7ecb8238b8673d98d0689929.jpg[/IMG]
From the most recent HGA Facebook post, addressing the McGwire card here.


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[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210218/a6fcc27cf88a70f0183c6cdacffdf89f.jpg[/IMG]
Part 2 of the statement regarding the McGwire


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[QUOTE=rfgilles;17005168]Not necessarily, if they set the cut-off at 55/45 or 60/40.[/QUOTE]


Bingo, this is exactly what they’re doing to have results similar to PSA so that things should theoretically gem evenly at both companies.


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Gonna try to submit some cards tomorrow. Love the Facebook post, transparency and everything I'm seeing so far.

[QUOTE=PostBaloney;17008936]Gonna try to submit some cards tomorrow. Love the Facebook post, transparency and everything I'm seeing so far.[/QUOTE]

What transparency? They provide no information whatsoever on their grading process, eg, cut-offs, grader vs software.

[QUOTE=leveljumper;17008460]They primarily communicate through Facebook it seems, so if you aren’t following them there you won’t see the answers to these questions. They’ve stated there that they are using programming currently set to 60/40 for gem centering (the same standard psa uses for centering). They said that they could make it tighter, but if they did it would be less gem grades overall, which is what a lot of people SAY they want, but then when the time comes they don’t really want it because it drives down the value of the card (see SGC 9.5 selling for around the sale or less as a PSA 9 for example). They counter this by having two grades above a gem, just like BGS does, to reward cards with true 50/50 centering. They just put out a statement on the McGwire tonight that I’ll post screenshots of.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
So explain the centering since you seem to know so much. A 60/40 card gets a 10 for centering. If the rest of the subs are 10 also, what is the overall grade?

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;17009206]So explain the centering since you seem to know so much. A 60/40 card gets a 10 for centering. If the rest of the subs are 10 also, what is the overall grade?[/QUOTE]


Based on talking to them, I would assume that it would be a 9.5 gem mint. I’m sure if you message them and ask on their Facebook they could confirm for you, though.


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[QUOTE=leveljumper;17008516][IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210218/a6fcc27cf88a70f0183c6cdacffdf89f.jpg[/IMG]
Part 2 of the statement regarding the McGwire


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
So a 6/10 front with a 10/10 back would get an 8.5 for centering, and could be a 9.5 overall with 9.5/9.5/10 subs for the rest. Handing out gems like candy because that is what people want, as they wrote themselves.

Good to see their insight though.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;17009211]So a 6/10 front with a 10/10 back would get an 8.5 for centering, and could be a 9.5 overall with 9.5/9.5/10 subs for the rest. Handing out gems like candy because that is what people want, as they wrote themselves.

Good to see their insight though.[/QUOTE]


So far they are the most transparent grading company by far that I’ve seen. I’m sure if you message them and ask them they will answer your questions.


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[QUOTE=leveljumper;17008460]They primarily communicate through Facebook it seems, so if you aren’t following them there you won’t see the answers to these questions. T[B]hey’ve stated there that they are using programming currently set to 60/40 for gem centering (the same standard psa uses for centering)[/B]. They said that they could make it tighter, but if they did it would be less gem grades overall, which is what a lot of people SAY they want, but then when the time comes they don’t really want it because it drives down the value of the card (see SGC 9.5 selling for around the sale or less as a PSA 9 for example). They counter this by having two grades above a gem, just like BGS does, to reward cards with true 50/50 centering. They just put out a statement on the McGwire tonight that I’ll post screenshots of.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Based on the posted Facebook excerpt, the 60/40 refers to weighing front centering vs back centering, eg, (hypothetical example) front centering 10 x 0.6 and back centering 8 x 0.4 = 9.2 overall centering grade.

This doesn't appear to refer to the guidelines for a cut-off for 10 centering vs 9.5 vs 9.0. For example, if a card has 59/41 TB centering, what would the centering grade be? They don't disclose that.

[QUOTE=leveljumper;17009210]Based on talking to them, I would assume that it would be a 9.5 gem mint. I’m sure if you message them and ask on their Facebook they could confirm for you, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
How would it be a 9.5 if they take the average of the four subgrades? Don't need to message them about this. They answered the question previously.

[QUOTE=rfgilles;17009190]What transparency? They provide no information whatsoever on their grading process, eg, cut-offs, grader vs software.[/QUOTE]

Transparency about mistakes made, what they’re doing to prevent them/fix them. New hires, production increase, etc. The owner gives updates on Facebook several times a week whereas the CEO of PSA might send out an email update once per quarter if that.
Don’t care to know every detail of how they calculate grades as long as they are somewhat inline with others and most importantly can get them graded in a timely fashion. I’m tired of waiting for PSA orders and having no idea when they’ll be done.

[QUOTE=PostBaloney;17009433]Transparency about mistakes made, what they’re doing to prevent them/fix them. New hires, production increase, etc. The owner gives updates on Facebook several times a week whereas the CEO of PSA might send out an email update once per quarter if that.
[B]Don’t care to know every detail of how they calculate grades as long as they are somewhat inline with others and most importantly[/B] can get them graded in a timely fashion. I’m tired of waiting for PSA orders and having no idea when they’ll be done.[/QUOTE]

To me, this is absolutely the most important question. They don't provide even the most basic info on their grading process, eg, how much is human grader vs software, weighing scores, cut-offs, is the software fully developed. If they are going to have any long-term credibility this info needs to be provided. To not disclose this information seems disingenuous.

Even their name "hybrid" suggests combining software with humans.

It seems their main selling point at this time is that they have the nicest looking slabs.

If they had fully software-driven objective grading and specified their criteria for cut-offs, I would definitely be interested.

[QUOTE=SupermanBrandon;17006077]I've said it before and I'll keep saying it...you come into a market desperately seeking transparency. You claim you are changing the game w/ AI technology. Yet the only thing we've seen are "sick, dope" labels. Marketing 101 says you lead w/ your big 900lb gorilla...the AI. Show it off. Show it working. Give social content around it. Yet, we have nothing. Barely a mention of it. Then you have errors of mis-spelled names, wrong labels, subs not adding correctly, and encasing errors. As others have said...you can't even get your computers talking to each other to print the right labels. How in the world did you build game changing AI grading technology?[/QUOTE]

Amen.

[QUOTE=rfgilles;17009465]To me, this is absolutely the most important question. They don't provide even the most basic info on their grading process, eg, how much is human grader vs software, weighing scores, cut-offs, is the software fully developed. If they are going to have any long-term credibility this info needs to be provided. To not disclose this information seems disingenuous.

Even their name "hybrid" suggests combining software with humans.

It seems their main selling point at this time is that they have the nicest looking slabs.

If they had fully software-driven objective grading and specified their criteria for cut-offs, I would definitely be interested.[/QUOTE]


I believe I’ve read in the past that they have a computer generated grade for centering and then a human grades the edges, corners, and surface. I could be wrong on that, though.


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[QUOTE=leveljumper;17011241]I believe I’ve read in the past that they have a computer generated grade for centering and then a human grades the edges, corners, and surface. I could be wrong on that, though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]
They have stated that their AI sends out errors which are then confirmed by two human graders, who also assess the cards for additional issues.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;17011310]They have stated that their AI sends out errors which are then confirmed by two human graders, who also assess the cards for additional issues.[/QUOTE]

That would seem reasonable if they do it that way. I'm still getting a Theranos, Elizabeth Holmes vibe. I hope they provide some proof that they actually use "AI", besides scanning cards and quantifying centering, which anybody with a scanner could do.

2 human graders seems like overkill if they are using "AI" as well.

[QUOTE=SupermanBrandon;17006077]I've said it before and I'll keep saying it...you come into a market desperately seeking transparency. You claim you are changing the game w/ AI technology. Yet the only thing we've seen are "sick, dope" labels. Marketing 101 says you lead w/ your big 900lb gorilla...the AI. Show it off. Show it working. Give social content around it. Yet, we have nothing. Barely a mention of it. Then you have errors of mis-spelled names, wrong labels, subs not adding correctly, and encasing errors. As others have said...you can't even get your computers talking to each other to print the right labels. How in the world did you build game changing AI grading technology?[/QUOTE]

I was going to send cards to them until I read this. Seems accurate.

[QUOTE=rngrdanny22;16993544]Anyone figured out, or heard, what type of "AI" they are using?

Or is it just a marketing ploy?

Best I can tell, this is just GMA in a pretty package. How many employees do they have? Are they also located in a basement?[/QUOTE]

Quote from their website (emphasis mine):

[QUOTE]The cards should be graded solely on the presentation of the card itself. So, [B]we are developing[/B] unique software that detects edges for crispness, corners for sharpness, centering for balance, and surfaces free of blemishes; we feel that we will grade your card accurately 100% of the time.[/QUOTE]

This sounds like they don't actually have this technology. I'm guessing this means they sat around a table and agreed this software was a good idea and now they are going to pay some hourly programmer to implement some open source image processing library to look at scans. There's a reason why none of us have seen this technology actually working. That's because it's not working. My guess is they are pretending to being doing this (or doing it with janky terrible software that's basically pointless) with the plan of using revenue to improve the tech over time. I don't think they are doing it maliciously, they probably think they are doing some good by trying to do this. I don't disagree with it being a good concept but executing is going to be very difficult.

Also, I don't mind the design of the slabs but it looks like it was printed on cheap paper and laminated by a $40 machine from amazon. I can see tons of spots, I think they are running their laminator too cold. They could at least make it look good when printed by getting a higher end printing setup.

I can't find it because the search function on here is horrible or maybe I'm just not doing something right, but I remember a while back there was a member who was developing some sort of AI grading technology. He solicited info and advice from some of the forum members here.

Is this the same guy the runs HGA?

[QUOTE=uberfractor;17012810]Quote from their website (emphasis mine):



This sounds like they don't actually have this technology. I'm guessing this means they sat around a table and agreed this software was a good idea and now they are going to pay some hourly programmer to implement some open source image processing library to look at scans. There's a reason why none of us have seen this technology actually working. That's because it's not working. My guess is they are pretending to being doing this (or doing it with janky terrible software that's basically pointless) with the plan of using revenue to improve the tech over time. I don't think they are doing it maliciously, they probably think they are doing some good by trying to do this. I don't disagree with it being a good concept but executing is going to be very difficult.
[/QUOTE]

Exactly. If they are currently relying on human graders, they are no different from any other grading company. They are being misleading at best, and fraudulent at worst. Not credible either way until they provide some evidence that they are using software for grading.

Just posted on Facebook. Doesn't move the needle for me until they provide videos or pics of how the software works.

[I]New advances in algorithm and hardware design have supported the emergence of artificial intelligence technologies in applications ranging from self-driving cars to cancer detection at superhuman rates. At HGA we are bringing those innovations to the sports card community. These new technologies work with the inherently objective and quantitative nature of machine grading to usher in a bright future where all cards are graded more fairly and reliably than ever before.
The grading process begins with a cleaning step before a high resolution scan is taken of each face of the card at 3200 DPI. That’s around the equivalent of 90 pictures captured on your smartphone. The high resolution scan is then run through our state-of-the-art automated grading system built from our vast database of annotated image data. Using various image transformations, convolutional operations, and other machine vision techniques, it’s able to extract the key features and measurements from the card image. Our predictive model then computes scores for various card component grades based on the extracted information. We are constantly working to improve our model and to stay on top of all of the new designs and trends from card makers. Once the machine grading is complete, we use two expert human graders to double check the work and ensure our high standards are always met.[/I]

[QUOTE=rfgilles;17022122]Just posted on Facebook. Doesn't move the needle for me until they provide videos or pics of how the software works.

[I]New advances in algorithm and hardware design have supported the emergence of artificial intelligence technologies in applications ranging from self-driving cars to cancer detection at superhuman rates. At HGA we are bringing those innovations to the sports card community. These new technologies work with the inherently objective and quantitative nature of machine grading to usher in a bright future where all cards are graded more fairly and reliably than ever before.
The grading process begins with a cleaning step before a high resolution scan is taken of each face of the card at 3200 DPI. That’s around the equivalent of 90 pictures captured on your smartphone. The high resolution scan is then run through our state-of-the-art automated grading system built from our vast database of annotated image data. Using various image transformations, convolutional operations, and other machine vision techniques, it’s able to extract the key features and measurements from the card image. Our predictive model then computes scores for various card component grades based on the extracted information. We are constantly working to improve our model and to stay on top of all of the new designs and trends from card makers. Once the machine grading is complete, we use two expert human graders to double check the work and ensure our high standards are always met.[/I][/QUOTE]


This is all I could think about when reading that post:

[IMG]https://frinkiac.com/meme/S08E14/387486.jpg?b64lines=IEVYQ1VTRSBNRSwgQlVUCiAiUFJPQUNUSVZFIiBBTkQKICJQQVJBRElHTSItLSBBUkVOJ1QgVEhFU0UKIEpVU1QgQlVaWldPUkRTIFRIQVQgRFVNQgogUEVPUExFIFVTRSBUTyBTT1VORAogSU1QT1JUQU5UPw==[/IMG]

[QUOTE=mooselang;17022139]This is all I could think about when reading that post:

[IMG]https://frinkiac.com/meme/S08E14/387486.jpg?b64lines=IEVYQ1VTRSBNRSwgQlVUCiAiUFJPQUNUSVZFIiBBTkQKICJQQVJBRElHTSItLSBBUkVOJ1QgVEhFU0UKIEpVU1QgQlVaWldPUkRTIFRIQVQgRFVNQgogUEVPUExFIFVTRSBUTyBTT1VORAogSU1QT1JUQU5UPw==[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Haha. That image is exactly right.

[QUOTE=rfgilles;17022122]
[I]New advances in algorithm and hardware design have supported the emergence of artificial intelligence technologies in applications ranging from self-driving cars to cancer detection at superhuman rates. At HGA we are bringing those innovations to the sports card community. These new technologies work with the inherently objective and quantitative nature of machine grading to usher in a bright future where all cards are graded more fairly and reliably than ever before.
[/I][/QUOTE]
There’s a whole lot of waffle in that pitch.
Including ignoring any bias in the training data. (ie it’s not “inherently objective”.)
Also, they’re conflating artificial intelligence and machine learning.
They could be legit, but until they prove otherwise, I’ll remain unconvinced.
(Remember, it’s on them to prove their tech works, not us to disprove it.)

[QUOTE=salthill;17022984]There’s a whole lot of waffle in that pitch.
Including ignoring any bias in the training data. (ie it’s not “inherently objective”.)
Also, they’re conflating artificial intelligence and machine learning.
They could be legit, but until they prove otherwise, I’ll remain unconvinced.
(Remember, it’s on them to prove their tech works, not us to disprove it.)[/QUOTE]


I agree with you they are conflating machine learning with AI, but this is common in society in general and I view the phrasing more as marketing speak. There are a lot of people that talk about things having “AI” that are not AI.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=leveljumper;17023064]I agree with you they are conflating machine learning with AI, but this is common in society in general and I view the phrasing more as marketing speak. There are a lot of people that talk about things having “AI” that are not AI.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


True. I’d be much more concerned with what their training data is.
If they’ve just used a bunch of images of PSA and BGS graded cards, then congrats, they’ve just built a system that - at its best - can only equal the performance of PSA/BGS.

[QUOTE=salthill;17023106]True. I’d be much more concerned with what their training data is.
If they’ve just used a bunch of images of PSA and BGS graded cards, then congrats, they’ve just built a system that - at its best - can only equal the performance of PSA/BGS.[/QUOTE]


I think that’s their goal, to use the PSA or BGS standard but to just be consistent with it and take market share that way. That’s a big complaint a lot of people have with BGS and PSA is that there isn’t consistency with what’s mint vs gem mint, etc. Being a “tough grade” doesn’t mean anything. A lot of people consider SGC the toughest grade, what has that done for resale value? Resale value is the point at the end of the day. Like 90% of people grade with the primary goal being to increase value of cards, not PC slabs. I personally think they probably should have done 3 different 10 grades (gem mint, pristine, flawless) instead of the BGS route 9.5 gem mint with 2 10’s and think it will be a huge mistake at the end of the day. As of now they’re doing great, though, and I’m looking forward to getting my cards back from them.


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There are so many issues with this.

(1) If this automated grading process is so superior to the grading processes offered by the other grading services, why would they not have pursued "inventing" it? They certainly have the capital to do so. Presumably, not only is it more accurate, but also simply being able to insert a card into a machine and having it then produce a grade should dramatically expedite the process as well, which would certainly appeal to the giants like PSA and BGS.

(2) And this brings me to my second point. If HGA has this new, automated, fast grading system, then why does it have such a hard cap limit on the number of cards submitted per week, and in particular, why is this number so low? Even as a new company with a small staff, if the grading software works as they advertise they should be able to grade far more cards. The current speed of grading they advertise implies a grading system similar to if not identical to those offered by the other companies, which means they are probably grading by hand.

(3) If they have this automated grading system, of which the calling card is "100% accuracy," why then have we already seen examples where cards have folded corners or are deeply off centered getting Gem Mint grades? Does the software not work? Because, if it does, it shouldn't just rarely make mistakes - it should never make them. Or, are they actually just grading by hand, like I stated before? Also, I understand having people check grades after they're assigned as a safety net, but if they stand by their software this really shouldn't be necessary. The inclusion of that step seems to me like a subtle admission humans ultimately grade the cards.

(4) The only bit of their "automated process" they've been explicit about is the photo taking. So, is their automated process just having a nice camera? Seems like it.

(5) There's not such thing as purely unbiased grading, as they advertise. Even the code that would evaluate cards in such an automated system would have to be written by a person, which creates bias around certain card features being evaluated more strictly or weighed more heavily than others (towards the final grade). Now, if this code does exist it should created unbiased grading from card to card, but that doesn't mean bias doesn't exist in the process at any step. Also, cards don't wear and become damaged in uniform stages. There is no such thing as the ideal "10", "9", "8" because of this inescapable reality. There always needs to be a judgement.

(6) We saw CSG grading, from an already massive company with established business standards and grading experience across collectibles, announce they would enter the market and then finally do so half a year or more later. But HGA? Where was the longstanding announcement of entry? How did they come up with this "automated system" so quickly, and just jump into the game almost overnight? How on earth were they able to do this when it took CSG, with all the pre-existing infrastructure, so long to get started? And who from the industry did they bring in to learn how to grade or write an appropriate grading code? What qualifies them to assign a grade? Sounds like some guys saw the market needed more grading, and just jumped in quickly to make a quick buck.

(7) The language they use on their website sounds like it was written by a "get rich quick" clout-chasing college bro who spends more time on Tiktok than committed to bettering his business. "Customer Service is the best, bar none," with an incorrectly capitalized second word. "Easy to submit" with no punctuation after it, unlike every other bullet point on their home page (just unprofessional inconsistency). "HGA is revolutionizing the industry" using buzzwords to attract the easily persuaded and gullible. "Changing the game," a literal phrase I've heard coming out of every college bro's mouth (as someone who not long ago was in college). Is using this language inherently problematic? No. But compounded with the other data points, like constant misspellings and improper grammar, and an obvious focus on appearance rather than on the quality of their service, it reeks of young, inexperienced, and quite frankly, a scam.

To put it bluntly, it seems like HGA is just the next "get rich quick" scheme concocted by a couple guys as they followed the rep around in Target on their last one.

. .

I would trust CGS 100x more than HGA, they have been grading stuff for a pretty long time.

[QUOTE=PepperDean;17023435]There are so many issues with this.

(1) If this automated grading process is so superior to the grading processes offered by the other grading services, why would they not have pursued "inventing" it? They certainly have the capital to do so. Presumably, not only is it more accurate, but also simply being able to insert a card into a machine and having it then produce a grade should dramatically expedite the process as well, which would certainly appeal to the giants like PSA and BGS.

(2) And this brings me to my second point. If HGA has this new, automated, fast grading system, then why does it have such a hard cap limit on the number of cards submitted per week, and in particular, why is this number so low? Even as a new company with a small staff, if the grading software works as they advertise they should be able to grade far more cards. The current speed of grading they advertise implies a grading system similar to if not identical to those offered by the other companies, which means they are probably grading by hand.

(3) If they have this automated grading system, of which the calling card is "100% accuracy," why then have we already seen examples where cards have folded corners or are deeply off centered getting Gem Mint grades? Does the software not work? Because, if it does, it shouldn't just rarely make mistakes - it should never make them. Or, are they actually just grading by hand, like I stated before? Also, I understand having people check grades after they're assigned as a safety net, but if they stand by their software this really shouldn't be necessary. The inclusion of that step seems to me like a subtle admission humans ultimately grade the cards.

(4) The only bit of their "automated process" they've been explicit about is the photo taking. So, is their automated process just having a nice camera? Seems like it.

(5) There's not such thing as purely unbiased grading, as they advertise. Even the code that would evaluate cards in such an automated system would have to be written by a person, which creates bias around certain card features being evaluated more strictly or weighed more heavily than others (towards the final grade). Now, if this code does exist it should created unbiased grading from card to card, but that doesn't mean bias doesn't exist in the process at any step. Also, cards don't wear and become damaged in uniform stages. There is no such thing as the ideal "10", "9", "8" because of this inescapable reality. There always needs to be a judgement.

(6) We saw CSG grading, from an already massive company with established business standards and grading experience across collectibles, announce they would enter the market and then finally do so half a year or more later. But HGA? Where was the longstanding announcement of entry? How did they come up with this "automated system" so quickly, and just jump into the game almost overnight? How on earth were they able to do this when it took CSG, with all the pre-existing infrastructure, so long to get started? And who from the industry did they bring in to learn how to grade or write an appropriate grading code? What qualifies them to assign a grade? Sounds like some guys saw the market needed more grading, and just jumped in quickly to make a quick buck.

(7) The language they use on their website sounds like it was written by a "get rich quick" clout-chasing college bro who spends more time on Tiktok than committed to bettering his business. "Customer Service is the best, bar none," with an incorrectly capitalized second word. "Easy to submit" with no punctuation after it, unlike every other bullet point on their home page (just unprofessional inconsistency). "HGA is revolutionizing the industry" using buzzwords to attract the easily persuaded and gullible. "Changing the game," a literal phrase I've heard coming out of every college bro's mouth (as someone who not long ago was in college). Is using this language inherently problematic? No. But compounded with the other data points, like constant misspellings and improper grammar, and an obvious focus on appearance rather than on the quality of their service, it reeks of young, inexperienced, and quite frankly, a scam.

To put it bluntly, it seems like HGA was just the next "get rich quick" scheme concocted by a couple guys as they followed the rep around in Target on their last one.[/QUOTE]

Agreed! They claim to have not 1, but 2 graders check the software results. Doesn't seem feasible.

I have some rare vintage cards that are probably going to be sold through Goldin in the near future. Right now I'm leaning towards CSG or HGA just to see how the market will react. I'm hoping they will accept HGA and give AI a chance to show how it'll be accepted by the vintage collector community. If Goldin gives me the OK the cards will be off to HGA with CSG being my second choice.

Of course I'll listen to the professionals if they tell me to only use PSA.

[QUOTE=HalfNipponese;17027316]I have some rare vintage cards that are probably going to be sold through Goldin in the near future. Right now I'm leaning towards CSG or HGA just to see how the market will react. I'm hoping they will accept HGA and give AI a chance to show how it'll be accepted by the vintage collector community. If Goldin gives me the OK the cards will be off to HGA with CSG being my second choice.

Of course I'll listen to the professionals if they tell me to only use PSA.[/QUOTE]

If your cards are high enough in value to be put in Goldin I’d seriously consider PSA as your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice, unless there’s a dent that PSA would grade no higher than a PSA 6, but another company might give an 8.

But I’d be interested to see how an HGA slab does in a bigger auction setting.

[QUOTE=kabrune2;17027337]If your cards are high enough in value to be put in Goldin I’d seriously consider PSA as your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice, unless there’s a dent that PSA would grade no higher than a PSA 6, but another company might give an 8.

But I’d be interested to see how an HGA slab does in a bigger auction setting.[/QUOTE]

Or...please do grade through HGA, I wouldn't mind trying to get some nice cards at a discount

[QUOTE=kabrune2;17027337]If your cards are high enough in value to be put in Goldin I’d seriously consider PSA as your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd choice, unless there’s a dent that PSA would grade no higher than a PSA 6, but another company might give an 8.

But I’d be interested to see how an HGA slab does in a bigger auction setting.[/QUOTE]

I know that I'll make more with PSA but I'm just so curious. I appreciate the advise as this will be my first time selling a vintage card. The three cards that Goldin are interested in are:

1976 Sport Parade Americana Jimmy Connors Rookie-PSA Pop 2
1976 Sport Parade Americana Martina Navratilova Rookie-PSA Pop 0
1976 Sport Parade Americana Chris Evert-PSA Pop 3

They will all probably grade between a 5 and 6.

I have no plans to ever submit to HGA (so I have no skin in the game) but why do people keep referencing the Mark McGwire card with the Gem Mint folded corner?

It was damaged while being slabbed and HGA owned up to it and has bought it back at comparable BGS 9.5 value. Thats more then any of the big 3 would do if they made a similar mistake.

[QUOTE=HalfNipponese;17027316]I have some rare vintage cards that are probably going to be sold through Goldin in the near future. Right now I'm leaning towards CSG or HGA just to see how the market will react. I'm hoping they will accept HGA and give AI a chance to show how it'll be accepted by the vintage collector community. If Goldin gives me the OK the cards will be off to HGA with CSG being my second choice.

Of course I'll listen to the professionals if they tell me to only use PSA.[/QUOTE]

Do you love wasting time and money, by chance?

I think many are underestimating the potential of HGA.