"MLB reclassifies Negro Leagues as major league"...Card Value Effect?
 

It seems that Negro league stats will be counted as major league stats now...

Thats great news

Im guessing they will go off of stats that were taken during oficial games and not barnstorming

[QUOTE=awz50;16760453]Thats great news

Im guessing they will go off of stats that were taken during oficial games and not barnstorming[/QUOTE]

Dissagree, they should now also count Japanese leagues. Ichiro all time hit king, Sadaharu Oh the new all time Home Run King.

Now that's sweet justice! Hopefully the records of all of those games and stats are available for them to go through so they can update the record books.

[QUOTE=Soxrule111;16760486]Dissagree, they should now also count Japanese leagues. Ichiro all time hit king, Sadaharu Oh the new all time Home Run King.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, what’s the difference? Stephon Marbury is now an all-time NBA player right? They were a different league and there’s nothing wrong with that, this makes no sense.

Oh, no. We're going this direction, huh?

Just lock it now.

[QUOTE=teosdesserts;16760492]Exactly, what’s the difference? Stephon Marbury is now an all-time NBA player right? They were a different league and there’s nothing wrong with that, this makes no sense.[/QUOTE]

LOL, that's your comparison?

You really can't see the difference between a league that existed because they weren't allowed to play in the majors vs. a dude who went to a lesser talented league because he could no longer play in the NBA?

Back on subject, this is great news. I can't wait to see what they have for guys like Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson.

This is great. But it’s going to get record book purists very triggered.

[QUOTE=Soxrule111;16760486]Dissagree, they should now also count Japanese leagues. Ichiro all time hit king, Sadaharu Oh the new all time Home Run King.[/QUOTE]

Here’s the difference: Ichiro and Oh could come over and play in the majors if they wanted

Players that played in the Negro league we’re literally banned from the MLB due to their skin color.

Recognizing the Negro league as stats makes complete sense because they were playing in the highest league possible at the time because once again, they were banned from the MLB

[QUOTE=no10pin;16760509]LOL, that's your comparison?

You really can't see the difference between a league that existed because they weren't allowed to play in the majors vs. a dude who went to a lesser talented league because he could no longer play in the NBA?

Back on subject, this is great news. I can't wait to see what they have for guys like Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson.[/QUOTE]

The outside politics and cultural problems surrounding the negro leagues is obviously entirely different. My point of contention here is that they were a different league and including their stats in comparison to MLB doesn’t make sense. Avid baseball fans look at Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, Sadaharu Oh, etc with great esteem given their accomplishments in their respective leagues. Combining the statistics from different leagues with different talent levels, playing conditions, etc is not fair to players on either end of the spectrum. They were very talented players in their own right, denied a chance to play in the MLB due to systemic rules that they had no control over and no amount of advocacy can change that history.

Statistics for leagues are relevant to the talent levels at the time in those leagues. The MLB has its own records, as do the negro leagues and it’s not unjust to keep them apart, the players competing and the access to equipment and facilities were not fair between the two. It’s not rocket science to understand the differences and to acknowledge greatness existed in both scenarios and it’s a shame that things happened as they did but there’s no time machine we can use to stamp out Jim Crow laws and cultural stigmas they kept these players apart in the first place....

[QUOTE=teosdesserts;16760565]The outside politics and cultural problems surrounding the negro leagues is obviously entirely different. My point of contention here is that they were a different league and including their stats in comparison to MLB doesn’t make sense. Avid baseball fans look at Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, Sadaharu Oh, etc with great esteem given their accomplishments in their respective leagues. Combining the statistics from different leagues with different talent levels, playing conditions, etc is not fair to players on either end of the spectrum. They were very talented players in their own right, denied a chance to play in the MLB due to systemic rules that they had no control over and no amount of advocacy can change that history.

Statistics for leagues are relevant to the talent levels at the time in those leagues. The MLB has its own records, as do the negro leagues and it’s not unjust to keep them apart, the players competing and the access to equipment and facilities were not fair between the two. It’s not rocket science to understand the differences and to acknowledge greatness existed in both scenarios and it’s a shame that things happened as they did but there’s no time machine we can use to stamp out Jim Crow laws and cultural stigmas they kept these players apart in the first place....[/QUOTE]


To some extent, I agree.

Josh Gibson goes from 1st place all time in HR's to, what, 200th?

People need to realize also they aren't going to crow josh Gibson and satchel Paige the homerun king or the strikeout king.

Nobody can prove that they had those stats. In the end im guessing gibsons all time homeruns will be counted under 200 and satchel will be at around 166 wins and 2000 Ks

[QUOTE=Eckstein197;16760561]Here’s the difference: Ichiro and Oh could come over and play in the majors if they wanted

Players that played in the Negro league we’re literally banned from the MLB due to their skin color.

Recognizing the Negro league as stats makes complete sense because they were playing in the highest league possible at the time because once again, they were banned from the MLB[/QUOTE]

But saying the foreign leagues are lesser talents, you dont truley believe 50% of the Negro leagues were MLB Talent do you? It was a lesser league by all means, just like the Mexican leagues and others.

[QUOTE=teosdesserts;16760565]The outside politics and cultural problems surrounding the negro leagues is obviously entirely different. My point of contention here is that they were a different league and including their stats in comparison to MLB doesn’t make sense. Avid baseball fans look at Satchel Paige, Josh Gibson, Sadaharu Oh, etc with great esteem given their accomplishments in their respective leagues. Combining the statistics from different leagues with different talent levels, playing conditions, etc is not fair to players on either end of the spectrum. They were very talented players in their own right, denied a chance to play in the MLB due to systemic rules that they had no control over and no amount of advocacy can change that history.

Statistics for leagues are relevant to the talent levels at the time in those leagues. The MLB has its own records, as do the negro leagues and it’s not unjust to keep them apart, the players competing and the access to equipment and facilities were not fair between the two. It’s not rocket science to understand the differences and to acknowledge greatness existed in both scenarios and it’s a shame that things happened as they did but there’s no time machine we can use to stamp out Jim Crow laws and cultural stigmas they kept these players apart in the first place....[/QUOTE]

There's still a difference between a league that exists out of necessity vs. a league that is made up of players who either cannot compete at the top level or choose not to because of geography.

I get the point about different talent levels, but if you want to make the point that Negro League players didn't have to pitch to Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig, the same could be said for those guys not having to hit off of Satchel Paige.

MLB recognizes stats from leagues like the American Association from the late 1800s, I expect this to be somewhat similar to that. That said, I don't think they have given many parameters around this. There will have to be a distinction between the official league and whatever stats were kept for the barnstorming games.

Why can’t Satchel Paige have some ridonkulous IP and K totals put into the record books? There are quite a few pitchers in the early 1900’s (and to a less extent mid-1900’s) pitched 40+ complete games in a season. I understand that the levels of play may or may not be equal, but the white only MLB didn’t have the best of the Negro Leagues hitting against them (and vice versa). Pitching from before the 1960’s will never translate to today’s game.

It’s just unfortunate that we’ll never really know how good Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige would’ve been playing in an integrated MLB during their primes. And let’s be honest, if Satchel had an ERA+ of 124 for the 476 IP he was able to play in MLB at ages 41-46, I think it’s easy to surmise he could’ve been an all-time great if he could’ve pitched in his 20’s and 30’s.

[QUOTE=Soxrule111;16760650]But saying the foreign leagues are lesser talents, you dont truley believe 50% of the Negro leagues were MLB Talent do you? It was a lesser league by all means, just like the Mexican leagues and others.[/QUOTE]

If black folks were allowed to play, you don’t truly believe a massive - or a statistically significant - portion of white players would be MLB Talent do you?

[QUOTE=RiceBondsMT2Yng;16760677]If black folks were allowed to play, you don’t truly believe a massive portion of white players would be MLB Talent do you?[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

If your argument is the Negro League stats shouldn't count because it was an inferior league, then MLB stats before 1947 shouldn't count either since it was also an inferior league.

[QUOTE=no10pin;16760662]There's still a difference between a league that exists out of necessity vs. a league that is made up of players who either cannot compete at the top level or choose not to because of geography.

[B]I get the point about different talent levels, but if you want to make the point that Negro League players didn't have to pitch to Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig, the same could be said for those guys not having to hit off of Satchel Paige[/B].

MLB recognizes stats from leagues like the American Association from the late 1800s, I expect this to be somewhat similar to that. That said, I don't think they have given many parameters around this. There will have to be a distinction between the official league and whatever stats were kept for the barnstorming games.[/QUOTE]

This is exactly my point.

[QUOTE=free2131;16760706]Exactly.

If your argument is the Negro League stats shouldn't count because it was an inferior league, then MLB stats before 1947 shouldn't count either since it was also an inferior league.[/QUOTE]

Very good point

If it could be done acurately, I would love to see what all leagues combined stats would look like. MLB, Negro Leagues, Japanese Leagues, Mexican Leagues, etc. The problem is the record keeping has been done differently across each of these, so any combining will just end up in a mess with arguments that can be made for or against any side.

[QUOTE=Soxrule111;16760650]But saying the foreign leagues are lesser talents, you dont truley believe 50% of the Negro leagues were MLB Talent do you? It was a lesser league by all means, just like the Mexican leagues and others.[/QUOTE]

Ok, this is an incredibly idiotic comment, comparing Mexican leagues of today or modern history where the players could play in MLB if their talent was good enough to negro leagues where players could never play in MLB no matter what, then make a declaration that less than 50% would be MLB worthy when there is no way to compare because the first half of the 1900’s was racist AF and would never allow it. 1900-1950’s baseball was very different, players didn’t train year round, didn’t have fancy metrics to improve by, it was basic talent and did you get a hit (batter) or get the batter out (pitcher). I would guess a decent % of black players would’ve been talented enough to make MLB rosters if the world was colorblind. I would guess that 50% of white only MLB couldn’t make the Negro Leagues, and 50% of the Negro Leagues wouldn’t make MLB... maybe there’s a 60/40 split, but again we don’t have a way to properly compare.

[QUOTE=teosdesserts;16760725]This is exactly my point.[/QUOTE]

You want them kept separate because they were separate leagues, and I get that. They are simply recognizing Negro League stats as 'major league', similar to what was done with other organizations in the 1800s. Right now they are treated kind of like minor league stats, and this feels like an effort to correct that.

Before inter-league play, the AL and NL were only connected by one series that doesn't count in the regular season stats that were are talking about. Why aren't those kept separate?

Nevermind

[QUOTE=Soxrule111;16760650]But saying the foreign leagues are lesser talents, you dont truley believe 50% of the Negro leagues were MLB Talent do you? It was a lesser league by all means, just like the Mexican leagues and others.[/QUOTE]

But those players such as Gibson and Satchel, could not physically play in the MLB due to their skin color. It wasn’t a choice, they were banned from it. I’m sure they would’ve loved to play if they were given a chance, like Satchel pitching in the bigs in his mid 40s.

As stated by numerous other posters here, the MLB was not full of the best talent because some of the best talent was in the Negro leagues

[QUOTE=smapdi;16760768]On what do you base that assumption?[/QUOTE]

Who are you responding to? You didn’t quote anyone

[QUOTE=Eckstein197;16760772]Who are you responding to? You didn’t quote anyone[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d4/ff/47/d4ff47dc48d4248374fa9ba72b79b4d7.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;16760551]This is great. But it’s going to get record book purists very triggered.[/QUOTE]

Not only the purists...

[QUOTE=Nostalgia;16760448]It seems that Negro league stats will be counted as major league stats now...[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;16760551]This is great. But it’s going to get record book purists very triggered.[/QUOTE]

So what new records are broken now? Didn't someone hit 800 HRs and now Barry's record is done?

[QUOTE=speedyjg13;16761098]So what new records are broken now? Didn't someone hit 800 HRs and now Barry's record is done?[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure no records are broken. Josh Gibson is claimed to have hit over 800 HRs but his official stats don’t have that.

Going to be an opportunity for some new / very old rookie cards. No reason Topps won’t monopolize on this “expansion” of the MLB ~ Come up with a “Gone but not forgotten” blaster box you’ll see at Target one day ? ( that’s pretty catchy - I just made that up :cool: )

Will also lead to new exhibits in Cooperstown? Endless tentacles that reach our hobby could grow from this. Just a prediction ( likely prediction .... )

NVM, was asked right above- I should have read before posting

[QUOTE=cardsin47;16761130]Going to be an opportunity for some new / very old rookie cards. No reason Topps won’t monopolize on this “expansion” of the MLB ~ Come up with a “Gone but not forgotten” blaster box you’ll see at Target one day ? ( that’s pretty catchy - I just made that up :cool: )

Will also lead to new exhibits in Cooperstown? Endless tentacles that reach our hobby could grow from this. Just a prediction ( likely prediction .... )[/QUOTE]

In a 2021 Bowman release, wouldn’t be surprised to see a Bowman 1st similar to how they did it a couple years back (just no auto version obviously)

[QUOTE=no10pin;16760766]You want them kept separate because they were separate leagues, and I get that. They are simply recognizing Negro League stats as 'major league', similar to what was done with other organizations in the 1800s. Right now they are treated kind of like minor league stats, and this feels like an effort to correct that.

[B]Before inter-league play, the AL and NL were only connected by one series that doesn't count in the regular season stats that were are talking about. Why aren't those kept separate?[/B][/QUOTE]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This could launch a whole new bunch’s’ threads ( in the future ), when we compare Ruth, Mantle and Mays stats to guys like:

[URL="https://imaginesports.com/news/5-greatest-negro-league-players"]https://imaginesports.com/news/5-greatest-negro-league-players[/URL]

[QUOTE=Eckstein197;16760561]Here’s the difference: Ichiro and Oh could come over and play in the majors if they wanted

Players that played in the Negro league we’re literally banned from the MLB due to their skin color.

Recognizing the Negro league as stats makes complete sense because they were playing in the highest league possible at the time because once again, they were banned from the MLB[/QUOTE]

"if they wanted" ?
Wasn't Ichiro tied to a buyout contract that the Mariners finally paid?

agree
 

[QUOTE=Eckstein197;16760770]But those players such as Gibson and Satchel, could not physically play in the MLB due to their skin color. It wasn’t a choice, they were banned from it. I’m sure they would’ve loved to play if they were given a chance, like Satchel pitching in the bigs in his mid 40s.

As stated by numerous other posters here, the MLB was not full of the best talent because some of the best talent was in the Negro leagues[/QUOTE]


I agree with this post completely. The stars in the negro league would be stars in the MLB and vice versa. Many biographies of White MLB stars from that era welcomed the competition...only the guys who thought they would lose there job or were racist disagreed. My two cents...disgree away! ha ha

[QUOTE=RW3FAN;16761332]"if they wanted" ?
Wasn't Ichiro tied to a buyout contract that the Mariners finally paid?[/QUOTE]

Come on, there’s a big difference between a buyout contract and the banning of an entire race due to skin color

I honestly don't care that they added them. I mean I care for historical sakes, but I really don't care for stats sake. So what if Josh Gibson goes down as the home run king, not that he would. It doesn't take away from the greatness of Hank Aaron or Babe Ruth or anyone else. Great is great. Josh Gibson was great; we know this. Same goes for Satchel Page.

I like stats as much as the next guy, but the game has changed a half a dozen times over the century. Stats haven't compared players in decades. They're nice to look at, but they don't mean much beyond that anymore. Nobody is breaking any all-time records anymore anyways.

Who's gonna be the guy to break Bonds HR record?
Who's gonna be the guy to throw more K's than Nolan Ryan?
Who's gonna have more RBI than Aaron?
Who's gonna get more wins or IP than Cy Young?
Who's gonna get more hits than Rose?

I could go on. The answer is nobody. The game is so different now.

Why are females shut out?
League of their own should count

Same with that 5'9" and under hoops league (Jordan brother)

[QUOTE=speedyjg13;16761098]So what new records are broken now? Didn't someone hit 800 HRs and now Barry's record is done?[/QUOTE]

Yea, it would be a shame to have to question the legitimacy of the home run record.

Cool Papa Bell is my favorite "Negro League" player.
Here's one of a few James "Cool Papa" Bell Auto's I have:

1978 Grand Slam James "Cool Papa" Bell Auto PSA/DNA
[IMG][img]https://i.imgur.com/pupNmct.jpg?1[/img][/IMG]

Here’s the reality...stats from the Negro Leagues are incomplete. Unfortunately no records will threaten any of the recognized career numbers. However, some players who played a significant portion of their career in the MLB will pick up extra numbers. For example, Satchel Paige will go from 28 Wins to 174. Still not representative of his career, but better than 28 Wins.

Jackie Robinson will pick up one more HR and 2 more stolen bases.
Willie Mays will get 16 more hits.
Minnie Minoso’s hit total will now crack 2,000.

As for the quality of the Negro Leagues, we already count the Federal League stats (a major league that lasted 2 years from 1914-1915) as official MLB stats. I would argue the Negro League level of play was far superior to the Federal League.

In the end, this is a long overdue decision that will have no bearing on anything other than to honor and provide a modicum of respect to men that more than earned it.

[QUOTE=tedwilliamsfan;16761893]Cool Papa Bell is my favorite "Negro League" player.
Here's one of a few James "Cool Papa" Bell Auto's I have:

1978 Grand Slam James "Cool Papa" Bell Auto PSA/DNA
[IMG][img]https://i.imgur.com/pupNmct.jpg?1[/img][/IMG][/QUOTE]

helluva foursome you have here! :)!

[QUOTE=Skipscards;16761922]Here’s the reality...stats from the Negro Leagues are incomplete. Unfortunately no records will threaten any of the recognized career numbers. However, some players who played a significant portion of their career in the MLB will pick up extra numbers. For example, Satchel Paige will go from 28 Wins to 174. Still not representative of his career, but better than 28 Wins.

Jackie Robinson will pick up one more HR and 2 more stolen bases.
Willie Mays will get 16 more hits.
Minnie Minoso’s hit total will now crack 2,000.

As for the quality of the Negro Leagues, we already count the Federal League stats (a major league that lasted 2 years from 1914-1915) as official MLB stats. I would argue the Negro League level of play was far superior to the Federal League.

In the end, this is a long overdue decision that will have no bearing on anything other than to honor and provide a modicum of respect to men that more than earned it.[/QUOTE]


^^^this! Very well said.

I was going to comment on the rampant whataboutism, but I will just let it go.......


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=Skipscards;16761922]Here’s the reality...stats from the Negro Leagues are incomplete. Unfortunately no records will threaten any of the recognized career numbers. However, some players who played a significant portion of their career in the MLB will pick up extra numbers. For example, Satchel Paige will go from 28 Wins to 174. Still not representative of his career, but better than 28 Wins.

Jackie Robinson will pick up one more HR and 2 more stolen bases.
Willie Mays will get 16 more hits.
Minnie Minoso’s hit total will now crack 2,000.

As for the quality of the Negro Leagues, we already count the Federal League stats (a major league that lasted 2 years from 1914-1915) as official MLB stats. I would argue the Negro League level of play was far superior to the Federal League.

[B]In the end, this is a long overdue decision that will have no bearing on anything other than to honor and provide a modicum of respect to men that more than earned it.[/B][/QUOTE]

This is what I don't get it. The vast majority of these guys have long passed. Doing this now just feels like a woke move.

[QUOTE=Skipscards;16761922]Here’s the reality...stats from the Negro Leagues are incomplete. Unfortunately no records will threaten any of the recognized career numbers. However, some players who played a significant portion of their career in the MLB will pick up extra numbers. For example, Satchel Paige will go from 28 Wins to 174. Still not representative of his career, but better than 28 Wins.

Jackie Robinson will pick up one more HR and 2 more stolen bases.
Willie Mays will get 16 more hits.
Minnie Minoso’s hit total will now crack 2,000.

As for the quality of the Negro Leagues, we already count the Federal League stats (a major league that lasted 2 years from 1914-1915) as official MLB stats. I would argue the Negro League level of play was far superior to the Federal League.

In the end, this is a long overdue decision that will have no bearing on anything other than to honor and provide a modicum of respect to men that more than earned it.[/QUOTE]Fantastic post!

Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=rman112;16762076]This is what I don't get it. The vast majority of these guys have long passed. Doing this now just feels like a woke move.[/QUOTE]

Even if it is a "woke move" isn't a move in the right direction rather than staying woefully ignorant.

Also, those men may be gone, but they have families who will appreciate that their loved one is finally recognized as an equal in the eyes of MLB.

[QUOTE=Middies31985;16762192]Even if it is a "woke move" isn't a move in the right direction rather than staying woefully ignorant.

[B]Also, those men may be gone, but they have families who will appreciate that their loved one is finally recognized as an equal in the eyes of MLB.[/B][/QUOTE]

This is true. But if it was really about recognizing their play and the men themselves, this would've been done long, long ago; not in 2020 where every organization is in a rat race to be the most socially correct.

[QUOTE=Middies31985;16762192]Even if it is a "woke move" isn't a move in the right direction rather than [B]staying woefully ignorant.[/B]

Also, those men may be gone, but they have families who will appreciate that their loved one is finally recognized as an equal in the eyes of MLB.[/QUOTE]

And staying ignorant to what? That the Negro Leagues existed? That there were a ton of really good players in the Negro Leagues, as exhibited by the numerous Negro Leaguers in the HOF?

[QUOTE=rman112;16762076]This is what I don't get it. The vast majority of these guys have long passed. Doing this now just feels like a woke move.[/QUOTE]

I understand why you feel that way. Even if it were a “woke moment”, what would be wrong with that? There’s still probably 100 players alive that played in the Negro Leagues and hundreds more that played in the MLB because of those pioneers. We honor the dead a lot in this country. But here’s why it isn’t a “woke move” so much as a correction of something that has been incongruous for way too long.

In 1968, Baseball officially recognized 6 leagues as “Major”. This included leagues from the 19th century with players long dead (Union Association, for example). Meanwhile, the Negro Leagues were not deemed worthy of inclusion. Basically, from a statistical standpoint, “Minor”. However, in 1971, Satchel Paige, a pitcher who pitched almost his entire career in the Negro Leagues was inducted into the Hall of Fame.

So, baseball honored a Negro League player and essentially said, you’re worthy of the Hall of Fame the same as Walter Johnson even though you did this in the Negro Leagues. You can come based on the merit of your accomplishments, we’re just not going to include those accomplishments in the record book. This is incongruous.

If Paige, and every other Negro League Hall of Famer were playing in an actual Minor League, then including them as Hall of Famers would make no sense. And if the Negro Leagues were truly a Minor League, then Arnold Statz would be inducted too. But Arnold’s 3,300 hits were in the Minors.

Baseball has a long, rich legacy marred by some dumb decisions. For once, they got this one right. Including the legacy of these men is long overdue. And incorporating the fractured statistics that can be confirmed is the least they could do.

[QUOTE=Skipscards;16762350]I understand why you feel that way. Even if it were a “woke moment”, what would be wrong with that? There’s still probably 100 players alive that played in the Negro Leagues and hundreds more that played in the MLB because of those pioneers. We honor the dead a lot in this country. [B]But here’s why it isn’t a “woke move” so much as a correction of something that has been incongruous for way too long.[/B]

In 1968, Baseball officially recognized 6 leagues as “Major”. This included leagues from the 19th century with players long dead (Union Association, for example). Meanwhile, the Negro Leagues were not deemed worthy of inclusion. Basically, from a statistical standpoint, “Minor”. However, in 1971, Satchel Paige, a pitcher who pitched almost his entire career in the Negro Leagues was inducted into the Hall of Fame.

So, baseball honored a Negro League player and essentially said, you’re worthy of the Hall of Fame the same as Walter Johnson even though you did this in the Negro Leagues. You can come based on the merit of your accomplishments, we’re just not going to include those accomplishments in the record book. This is incongruous.

If Paige, and every other Negro League Hall of Famer were playing in an actual Minor League, then including them as Hall of Famers would make no sense. And if the Negro Leagues were truly a Minor League, then Arnold Statz would be inducted too. But Arnold’s 3,300 hits were in the Minors.

Baseball has a long, rich legacy marred by some dumb decisions. For once, they got this one right. Including the legacy of these men is long overdue. And incorporating the fractured statistics that can be confirmed is the least they could do.[/QUOTE]

It can be both.

are woke people collecting thou?

[QUOTE=rman112;16762410]It can be both.[/QUOTE]

And if it is? Are you criticizing a just result because people you don't like also like the result?

[QUOTE=RiceBondsMT2Yng;16762465]And if it is? Are you criticizing a just result because people you don't like also like the result?[/QUOTE]

There's nothing wrong with the result. It just feels hollow.

[QUOTE=rman112;16762468]There's nothing wrong with the result. It just feels hollow.[/QUOTE]

I'm not a fan of woke for being woke either. But were there legion hippies on the internet trolling for negro league stats to be recognized as MLB stats?

[QUOTE=rman112;16762468]There's nothing wrong with the result. It just feels hollow.[/QUOTE]

Maybe the change isn’t meant for you

[QUOTE=monkeymcgee;16762479]Maybe the change isn’t meant for you[/QUOTE]

That's fine. If it was meant for the players, they really screwed the pooch.

[QUOTE=rman112;16762410]It can be both.[/QUOTE]

Yes. It can be both. But again, getting it right is getting it right. Whether that is to “right” an injustice decades late or simply to “right” the record-books and apply logic to the statistics of Major League baseball which are sacrosanct.

I believe Oh should have the record now.. why not all leagues now. Might as well. Congrats Ichiro, new hit king...

MLB has caused alot of confusion. Regardless of reason, there is no verification under what conditions and the reliability of those stats are.

In my opinion, they should have kept them apart.

And I'm a visible minority so I don't have a bias in that area.

I also thought about it and not many may agree but is a slap to what Jackie Robinson, Willie May, Roy Campanella and other players who made that crossover as the conditions they had to play in where much different and historical. I hope we can all agree that documented history shows the playing conditions were much different for them when they played in the MLB.

I'd also look at it as shallow to keep a race out but know include the stats ? We can't change history, but we should learn from it and not repeat those mistakes.

As for international players who could have moved, we don't know if racism was part of keeping them out. Thus if you include this one, you should include them all.

MLB should also look at the woman's baseball league in the 1940's I believe.

What they did do though was really alter of how we all see the statistical records in baseball.

[QUOTE=Skipscards;16762587]Yes. It can be both. But again, getting it right is getting it right. Whether that is to “right” an injustice decades late or simply to “right” the record-books and apply logic to the statistics of Major League baseball which are sacrosanct.[/QUOTE]

Getting it right for everyone else to feel good about - not the people it could've affected most. Like you said, decades late. Now the folks in the league can pat each other on the back.

[QUOTE=rman112;16762639]Getting it right for everyone else to feel good about - not the people it could've affected most. Like you said, decades late. Now the folks in the league can pat each other on the back.[/QUOTE]

Since we can’t go back in time and do this when it should have been done, are you saying that at this point MLB should waited a few more years to not seem “woke”, or not done it at all?

[QUOTE=MiamiMarlinsFan;16762654]Since we can’t go back in time and do this when it should have been done, are you saying that at this point MLB should waited a few more years to not seem “woke”, or not done it at all?[/QUOTE]

I'm saying that I'm not buying the 'feel good' of it all.

[QUOTE=kabrune2;16760669]Why can’t Satchel Paige have some ridonkulous IP and K totals put into the record books? There are quite a few pitchers in the early 1900’s (and to a less extent mid-1900’s) pitched 40+ complete games in a season. I understand that the levels of play may or may not be equal, but the white only MLB didn’t have the best of the Negro Leagues hitting against them (and vice versa). Pitching from before the 1960’s will never translate to today’s game.

It’s just unfortunate that we’ll never really know how good Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige would’ve been playing in an integrated MLB during their primes. And let’s be honest, if Satchel had an ERA+ of 124 for the 476 IP he was able to play in MLB at ages 41-46, I think it’s easy to surmise he could’ve been an all-time great if he could’ve pitched in his 20’s and 30’s.[/QUOTE]

To add to those advanced stats, Satchel Paige put up 10.2 WAR over those 476 innings in the majors from ages 41-46. Dude would have been a monster, an absolute monster.

[QUOTE=rman112;16762468]There's nothing wrong with the result. It just feels hollow.[/QUOTE]

Shocking to see you take this position for the millionth time. You were one of the first to whine about MLB mentioning that black lives matter on Opening Day...now this.

Some or late recognition is better than no recognition.

[QUOTE=rman112;16762670]I'm saying that I'm not buying the 'feel good' of it all.[/QUOTE]

Noted. While some at MLB may not have had the purest of intentions with this, when it’s the right thing to do, better late than never.

"MLB reclassifies Negro Leagues as major league"...Card Value Effect?
 

[QUOTE=win1977;16762626]I believe Oh should have the record now.. why not all leagues now. Might as well. Congrats Ichiro, new hit king...

[/QUOTE]

IMO NPB is a minor league and always has been- MLBers who can’t make a roster go there and I’d argue that a majority of the others wouldn’t make a team in the MLB. The only major leagues are MLB and Negro Leagues, the leagues of which the National Baseball Hall of Fame has its inductees from. (Not saying that there aren’t some world class players in it, just saying their competition is not on par)

[QUOTE=Lonewolf;16762788]Shocking to see you take this position for the millionth time. You were one of the first to whine about MLB mentioning that black lives matter on Opening Day...now this.

Some or late recognition is better than no recognition.[/QUOTE]

My opinions on this are not about race. They're about not thinking that the league deserves praise when they're doing this to curry favor in the modern world after passing up the chance for decades (when no one was stopping them), and when so many of the players would've actually been able to see and feel the benefits of their accomplishments being recognized.

But it's your choice over whether or not to be offended. Don't forget that. Whining over what you perceive as whining doesn't help anyone. And I can guarantee that it doesn't help you.

[QUOTE=free2131;16760706]Exactly.

If your argument is the Negro League stats shouldn't count because it was an inferior league, then MLB stats before 1947 shouldn't count either since it was also an inferior league.[/QUOTE]


This is probably the way it should actually be viewed. Prior to 1947 neither league was whole. Toss all the records prior to.

[QUOTE=smanzari;16762844]IMO NPB is a minor league and always has been- MLBers who can’t make a roster go there and I’d argue that a majority of the others wouldn’t make a team in the MLB. The only major leagues are MLB and Negro Leagues, the leagues of which the National Baseball Hall of Fame has its inductees from. (Not saying that there aren’t some world class players in it, just saying their competition is not on par)[/QUOTE]

Yep. There have been too many guys billed as studs in Japan that come over here and flop, and too many guys that couldn't cut it in the bigs and go there to shine. Pitching has the ability to transfer, because stuff is stuff. But the hitting, and the power especially, rarely transfers from Japanese baseball to the MLB.

I like it. Should have been done long ago. It does feel like a "woke" moment, but it would not have if it was done 10-15 years ago. Remove today's political climate from the decision and it would be cheered as a great move.

[QUOTE=rman112;16762855]My opinions on this are not about race. They're about not thinking that the league deserves praise when they're doing this to curry favor in the modern world after passing up the chance for decades (when no one was stopping them), and when so many of the players would've actually been able to see and feel the benefits of their accomplishments being recognized.

But it's your choice over whether or not to be offended. Don't forget that. Whining over what you perceive as whining doesn't help anyone. And I can guarantee that it doesn't help you.[/QUOTE]

Save the self-righteousness. Your opinion is no better than anyone else's...

[QUOTE=Lonewolf;16762889]Save the self-righteousness. Your opinion is no better than anyone else's...[/QUOTE]

From trying to a pick a fight to victimhood real fast.

[QUOTE=Nostalgia;16760448]It seems that Negro league stats will be counted as major league stats now...[/QUOTE]


Back to the OP, I don’t think card values will be affected that much.

People who think the timing of this is suspicious given the current political climate will not be buying more unless there’s a massive PR campaign and money to be made. People who already believed the Negro Leagues were on par with MLB were most likely to have been buying anyway.

But in either case a long-lasting increase in value doesn’t seem likely, simply because Negro League players haven’t played in many decades and so few (if any) are still alive. By the same measure it’s equally unlikely that MLB players from that timeframe would be seeing a surge in interest either.

not sure if it has been mentioned.... didnt read entire thread.

Ted Williams not the last player to hit .400 in a season

Josh Gibson .486 in 1943 - only 186 ABs tho

[QUOTE=Ferg1945;16762930]not sure if it has been mentioned.... didnt read entire thread.

Ted Williams not the last player to hit .400 in a season

Josh Gibson .486 in 1943 - only 186 ABs tho[/QUOTE]

I can't imagine it'd be included in the context of .400 hitters. I love the 1 walk, though. 62 to 1 RBI to BB ratio.. Lol.