Broadway Joe or Kareem Rookie?
 

Looking for feedback from the group to help me make a purchasing decision. I can only afford to get one of these cards, but I'm torn between the Joe Namath 1965 Topps Rookie and the Lew Alcindor 1969 Topps Rookie.

Both are obviously icons for their sport and both cards probably fall around 5K in a 6 grade.

I'd appreciate any feedback as to why people would prefer one over the other. It looks like the Namath has smaller pop counts if that matter. Thanks!

Namath has the New York market without any other Jet quarterback to contend as a legend.

Lew Alcindor has a recent global market but I’m not sure the vintage rookie cards are collected the way the Jordan to today cards are. KAJ’s rookie card may be in a period of time where the new market collectors have not shown interest in?

Kareem this isn’t even a real contest

Kareem. More championships.

Kareem more everything. Top 5 all time basketball player (3 on my list behind mj and LeBron)

Namath. More iconic card.

Kareem. And it’s not close.

Kareem and Namath
 

Kareem's RC in a PSA 6 was selling for less than $1000 in April of this year. They seem to be in the $4000 range right now.

Namath is selling for $5 K now and was still a $2500 card a year ago.

Namath has around 1700 graded with 307 PSA 6's.

Jabbar has 3200 graded with 649 PSA 6's.

Leaving out their respective place in history in their sports (which is subjective) the Namath is far more difficult to get. So unless the Jabbar has twice the number of people looking for it, I would buy the Namath currently.

Yes those are salient points. If someone offered me an Alcindor or Namath rookie same comparable condition I would take the Broadway Joe no hesitation. That said they are both monster cards.

Broadway or Kareem?
 

Being a New Yorker, both of these cards are very special for me. I'm old enough to have seen both of them play their game, and also experienced the buzz surrounding them.
Both of them New York legends, but Namath not only played the game in New York, he portrayed the NY lifestyle that every young man wanted to be a part of. Before wanting to be like Mike... It was Joe!
Although I have both cards, Namath was the most difficult to get price wise and condition. I also think it is a better looking card. The Alcindor card seems to be an easier pickup. If I could only choose one, Broadway Joe would be my choice:)!. Here are my two cards...

[IMG]https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v354/hlc1949/namath_rc_001.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds[/IMG][IMG]https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v354/hlc1949/namath_rc_002(1).jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds[/IMG]

[IMG]https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v354/hlc1949/alcinder_rc_001.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds[/IMG][IMG]https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v354/hlc1949/alcinder_rc_002.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds[/IMG]

Joe butterfly variation!

rookies
 

Alcindor rookie.. I will keep it

Namath rookie, Id love to get rid of it

Namath's career record is 68-71-4. I'll go Kareem.

As an investment, I'd say 100% Kareem.

He's the all-time record holder of total career points scored (and even if eclipsed by LeBron, there's so many other records Kareem holds)

Basketball, as you may have noticed is more popular than Football in the trading card hobby. You see rookie cards of HOF'ers and GOAT's of their position and of their era's skyrocket in Basketball, but Football cards aside from a narrower group of names, seem to have stagnated. Rookie Cards of modern basketball players who are bench warming prospects often outperform starting young talent on the gridiron in Football when it comes to pricing.

Joe is a icon, but he's kind of "out of sight, out of mind" and not a personality you see much in the public eye anymore. He's best known by this generation for his drunken sexual harassment of a reporter in 2003. The next surge in his card prices is probably upon his passing, unfortunately.

Kareem, 'tho most of what he's doing today is more political or activist based, is still seen in the public eye.

Basketball, you see the players faces, where Football it's men with helmets, so as personalities, Basketball seems to cultivate more popular star players. The kids of today who will be adults of tomorrow seem to also favor the NBA over the NFL when it comes to individual players.

Kareem and it's not even close. Kareem is one of the top 5 players in NBA history and an absolute sports and cultural icon.

Namath was a below average QB who was marketed more for his personality than talent on the field.

Namath. It is the 1952 Topps Mantle of football cards. Kareem's profile is just going to diminish when LeBron passes him in points.

[QUOTE=49ersSF;16813436]

Namath was a below average QB who was marketed more for his personality than talent on the field.[/QUOTE]

By this logic, Gayle Sayers was a below average RB because he rushed for less than 5000 yards. Comparing Namath against his contemporaries, he was a great QB. Under the old rules which made passing much more difficult, he held the record for passing yards in a season as the only QB to pass for 4000 yards. He was a 2xMVP and 5xAll Pro as well as being elected to the Pro FB HOF. He led the Jets to the greatest upset in NFL history, but after that injuries derailed his career.

[QUOTE=rats60;16813455]By this logic, Gayle Sayers was a below average RB because he rushed for less than 5000 yards. Comparing Namath against his contemporaries, he was a great QB. Under the old rules which made passing much more difficult, he held the record for passing yards in a season as the only QB to pass for 4000 yards. He was a 2xMVP and 5xAll Pro as well as being elected to the Pro FB HOF. He led the Jets to the greatest upset in NFL history, but after that injuries derailed his career.[/QUOTE]

Gale Sayers is a poor choice to compare him to. Gale Sayers played 5 years and average 1,000 yards per season with a 5.0 per carry average and an average of 10 touchdowns per season. When compared to his contemporaries he superior to most. Comparing Namath to his contemporaries is what proves he was below average.

[B]Hall of Famers[/B]

Bart Starr: 94 wins 57 losses (9 playoff wins)
24,713 yards 57.4 comp% 152 tds 138 interceptions [B]80.5 QBR[/B]

Johnny Unitas 118 wins 63 losses (6 playoff wins)
40,239 yards 54.6 comp% 290 tds 253 interceptions [B]78.2 QBR[/B]

Fran Tarkenton 124 wins 109 losses (6 playoff wins)
47,003 yards 57.0 comp% 342 tds 266 interceptions [B]80.4 QBR[/B]

Len Dawson 94 wins 57 losses (5 playoff wins)
28,711 yards 57.1 comp % 239 tds 183 interceptions [B]82.6 QBR[/B]

Sonny Jurgensen 69 wins 71 losses
32,224 yards 57.1 comp% 255 tds 189 interceptions [B]82.6 QBR[/B]

Bob Griese: 92 wins 56 losses (6 playoff wins)
25,092 yards 56.2 comp% 192 tds 172 interceptions [B]77.1 QBR[/B]

[B]Hall of Good[/B]

Roman Gabriel 86 wins 64 losses
29,444 yards 52.6% comp 201 tds 149 interceptions [B]74.3 QBR[/B]

John Brodie 74 wins 76 losses (2 playoff wins)
31,548 yards 55%comp 214 tds 224 interceptions [B]72.3 QBR[/B]

Frank Ryan 57 wins 27 losses (1 playoff win)
16,042 yards 51.1 comp% 149 tds 111 interceptions [B]77.6 QBR[/B]

Darryl Lamonica 66 wins 16 losses (4 playoff wins)
19,154 yards 49.5 comp% 164 tds 138 interceptions [B]72.9 QBR[/B]

Earl Morrall 63 wins 36 losses (4 playoff wins)
20,809 yards 51.3 comp% 161 tds 148 interceptions [B]74.6 QBR[/B]

Don Meredith 47 wins 32 losses (1 playoff win)
17,199 yards 50.7 comp% 135 tds 111 interceptions [B]74.8 QBR[/B]

Billy Kilmer 61 wins 52 losses (2 playoff wins)
20,495 years 53.1 comp% 152 TDs 146 interceptions [B]71.6 QBR[/B]

[B]Hall of Below Average[/B]

Milt Plum 56 wins 41 losses
17,536 yards 54.0 comp% 122 tds 125 interceptions [B]72.2 QBR[/B]

Charley Johnson 59 wins 57 losses
24,410 yards 51.2 comp% 170 tds 181 interceptions [B]69.2 QBR[/B]

John Hadl 82 wins 75 losses (no playoff wins)
33,503 yards 244 tds 268 interceptions [B]67.4 QBR[/B]

Jim Hart 87 wins 88 losses
34,665 yards 51.1 comp % 209 tds 247 interceptions [B]66.6 QBR[/B]

Joe Namath 62 wins 63 losses. (2 playoff wins)
27,663 yards. 50.1 comp% 173 tds 220 interceptions [B]65.5 QBR[/B]

Norm Snead 52 wins 100 losses
30,797 yards 52.3 comp% 196 tds 257 interceptions [B]65.5 QBR[/B]

So basically, Joe Namath is tied for the worst QBR with his contemporaries. He had one good season in his 13 year career.

Actual numbers and all time rankings aside. Namath rookie has been an iconic card since at least the mid 80s. I’ve been in this hobby since 84 and have never seen Alcindor rookie on the cover of an auction catalog or headline anything. Also Without checking pop reports, the Kareem rookie has always been much easier to find in high grade than Namath.

[QUOTE=carlo16;16813710]Actual numbers and all time rankings aside. Namath rookie has been an iconic card since at least the mid 80s. I’ve been in this hobby since 84 and have never seen Alcindor rookie on the cover of an auction catalog or headline anything. Also Without checking pop reports, the Kareem rookie has always been much easier to find in high grade than Namath.[/QUOTE]

The Namath card is definitely much more rare and quite unique as it is from the talk boy football. It's a definite icon of vintage football. I'd still take the Alcindor rookie over it given his status as one of the greatest ever.

[QUOTE=49ersSF;16813653]Gale Sayers is a poor choice to compare him to. Gale Sayers played 5 years and average 1,000 yards per season with a 5.0 per carry average and an average of 10 touchdowns per season. When compared to his contemporaries he superior to most. Comparing Namath to his contemporaries is what proves he was below average.

[B]Hall of Famers[/B]

Bart Starr: 94 wins 57 losses (9 playoff wins)
24,713 yards 57.4 comp% 152 tds 138 interceptions [B]80.5 QBR[/B]

Johnny Unitas 118 wins 63 losses (6 playoff wins)
40,239 yards 54.6 comp% 290 tds 253 interceptions [B]78.2 QBR[/B]

Fran Tarkenton 124 wins 109 losses (6 playoff wins)
47,003 yards 57.0 comp% 342 tds 266 interceptions [B]80.4 QBR[/B]

Len Dawson 94 wins 57 losses (5 playoff wins)
28,711 yards 57.1 comp % 239 tds 183 interceptions [B]82.6 QBR[/B]

Sonny Jurgensen 69 wins 71 losses
32,224 yards 57.1 comp% 255 tds 189 interceptions [B]82.6 QBR[/B]

Bob Griese: 92 wins 56 losses (6 playoff wins)
25,092 yards 56.2 comp% 192 tds 172 interceptions [B]77.1 QBR[/B]

[B]Hall of Good[/B]

Roman Gabriel 86 wins 64 losses
29,444 yards 52.6% comp 201 tds 149 interceptions [B]74.3 QBR[/B]

John Brodie 74 wins 76 losses (2 playoff wins)
31,548 yards 55%comp 214 tds 224 interceptions [B]72.3 QBR[/B]

Frank Ryan 57 wins 27 losses (1 playoff win)
16,042 yards 51.1 comp% 149 tds 111 interceptions [B]77.6 QBR[/B]

Darryl Lamonica 66 wins 16 losses (4 playoff wins)
19,154 yards 49.5 comp% 164 tds 138 interceptions [B]72.9 QBR[/B]

Earl Morrall 63 wins 36 losses (4 playoff wins)
20,809 yards 51.3 comp% 161 tds 148 interceptions [B]74.6 QBR[/B]

Don Meredith 47 wins 32 losses (1 playoff win)
17,199 yards 50.7 comp% 135 tds 111 interceptions [B]74.8 QBR[/B]

Billy Kilmer 61 wins 52 losses (2 playoff wins)
20,495 years 53.1 comp% 152 TDs 146 interceptions [B]71.6 QBR[/B]

[B]Hall of Below Average[/B]

Milt Plum 56 wins 41 losses
17,536 yards 54.0 comp% 122 tds 125 interceptions [B]72.2 QBR[/B]

Charley Johnson 59 wins 57 losses
24,410 yards 51.2 comp% 170 tds 181 interceptions [B]69.2 QBR[/B]

John Hadl 82 wins 75 losses (no playoff wins)
33,503 yards 244 tds 268 interceptions [B]67.4 QBR[/B]

Jim Hart 87 wins 88 losses
34,665 yards 51.1 comp % 209 tds 247 interceptions [B]66.6 QBR[/B]

Joe Namath 62 wins 63 losses. (2 playoff wins)
27,663 yards. 50.1 comp% 173 tds 220 interceptions [B]65.5 QBR[/B]

Norm Snead 52 wins 100 losses
30,797 yards 52.3 comp% 196 tds 257 interceptions [B]65.5 QBR[/B]

So basically, Joe Namath is tied for the worst QBR with his contemporaries. He had one good season in his 13 year career.[/QUOTE]

QBR is a poor standard to use. If Namath had 1 good season, he wouldn't have been a 2 time MVP and 5 time AP. Completion percentage is a post rules change standard. Namath had a low completion percentage because he had a quick release and the lowest sack percentage of any contemporaries because he was good at throwing the ball away. Today's QBs would rather take a sack losing yardage than throw the ball away hurting their completion percentage. Namath's sack percentage was 3.8%. Johnny Unitas' was 6.8%, Fran Tarkenton's 7.8%.

Interceptions weren't the big deal they are today. QBs in Namath's day didn't use the West Coast offense and throw 2 yard passes where an INT hurt the team. They threw the ball down field so when it was picked off it was like a punt. Passing offenses were high risk, high reward, not complete 3 passes and hope to gain 10 yards.

Namath may be last in completion percentage among contemporaries, but first in yards per completion and net yards per attempt. Namath is 3rd in adjusted net yards per attempt which factors in interceptions. If you only complete every other pass, but 2 pass attempts get you a 1st down, completion percentage is irrelevant. The goal is to gain 10 yards in 3 (or 4) downs. So despite his low completion percentage and high number of interceptions, he was one of the best quarterbacks of his era.

Just like Joe Montana and Tom Brady would have been average to below average QBs had they played pre rules changes, Joe Namath would be average under today's standards, but was one of the best quarterbacks in his day. People trying to apply today's standards which apply to today's rules misunderstand and under rate older QBs like Namath.

Namath preposterously guaranteed a win in the most important game in the history of the sport and delivered. As Broadway Joe (his unbelievably apt nickname), he is one of the most iconic personalities in the history of sports. Short print, tall boy, great looking card (it truly is), New York, rock star, sex symbol, forget the numbers, he transcends them. Arguing about his statistics in my opinion misses the larger point here.

Does anyone say Namath was the best ever in his sport? I’ve heard Kareem mentioned, never Joe.

[QUOTE=byronscott4ever;16815581]Does anyone say Namath was the best ever in his sport? I’ve heard Kareem mentioned, never Joe.[/QUOTE]

Heck he's not even close to being the best Joe in his sport

[QUOTE=byronscott4ever;16815581]Does anyone say Namath was the best ever in his sport? I’ve heard Kareem mentioned, never Joe.[/QUOTE]

Never heard Mantle named best in his sport.

simply, best centered/visual appeal. all vintage talls are my fave. They suffer most from centering.

[QUOTE=carlo16;16816451]Never heard Mantle named best in his sport.[/QUOTE]

He was a far better baeball player than Namath was a football player, but like Namath his popularity and card love were based on lots of other factors besides pure stats.

Namath all the way. The question has nothing to do with the player, this is about the card. Namath is the tougher card. It is THE iconic football card for the sport.

[QUOTE=VanLingoMungo46;16746053]Namath. More iconic card.[/QUOTE]

THIS^^^^

The Namath RC is the FB equivalent of the '52 Mantle, the most iconic postwar football card. If I knew how to post pics here, I'd post my own.

Alcindor ... not even a contest (for me).

I've scoured top NBA players of all time and he's never below #3 on anyone's list. Basketball is more popular with younger fans. They know who Kareem is. They don't know who Joe is. And with the protection of QBs and expanded schedule, there will continue to be QBs who pass Namath in fame.

I also like the idea that this car has his original name - adds to the coolness of the card.

[QUOTE=ToppsFB;16876303]Namath all the way. The question has nothing to do with the player, this is about the card. Namath is the tougher card. It is THE iconic football card for the sport.[/QUOTE]

Maybe iconic for football collectors. That might say more about how horrible football cards have looked for so many years.

And I'd also say Football is the #3 sport in terms of card collecting popularity.

Well I made my choice in this debate and just recently grabbed a midgrade Namath. I'm looking at it right now and it's just a spectacular card. The color and the look on Joe's face. The card pops bigtime. I'm not gonna use the "I" word but I'm thinking it.

You can't really go wrong in this debate, but I went with Namath and I'm a happy customer.

Here it is. Definitely a diamond cut, but clean surface and great color. Takes it's place in the Mt Rushmore of my collection alongside Teddy Ballgame RC, '52T Willie and hmm I'm not sure what would be #4.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/yvD0kZj.jpg[/img]

Nice looking card, congratulations!

[QUOTE=49ersSF;16813436]Kareem and it's not even close. Kareem is one of the top 5 players in NBA history and an absolute sports and cultural icon.

Namath was a below average QB who was marketed more for his personality than talent on the field.[/QUOTE]

This !
The only thing that defines Joe Namath is his crazy prediction that the Jets would win the Super Bowl which they did !
but other than that one of the most overrated QBs of all time

And I saw them for their careers.
And Alcindor / UCLA..

Joe's Super Bowl prediction transcends sports. It's also a short print and a much nicer looking and more iconic card than the Kareem rookie. It has room to appreciate and I'm hopping on board the Namath express for more growth.

good choice!

Namath
 

Congrats! Cannot go wrong with either card.

Congratulations! Great choice, I just picked up a 5.5 myself. Love this card and the history behind it. Without Joe, we have a whole different league today. People look at his stats and write him off, but Joe was far more than just a player or a QB, he was the face of the sport when it went mainstream and for ever will be. Great card! Enjoy!

[QUOTE=VanLingoMungo46;17270482]Here it is. Definitely a diamond cut, but clean surface and great color. Takes it's place in the Mt Rushmore of my collection alongside Teddy Ballgame RC, '52T Willie and hmm I'm not sure what would be #4.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/yvD0kZj.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Picklepete;17271489]This !
The only thing that defines Joe Namath is his crazy prediction that the Jets would win the Super Bowl which they did !
but other than that one of the most overrated QBs of all time

And I saw them for their careers.
And Alcindor / UCLA..[/QUOTE]

Kareem is the most overrated NBA player of all time.

Namath is the only QB to throw for over 4000 yards under the old rules. He also had one of the quickest releases resulting in one of the lowest sack percentages. It is too bad that people care more about completion percentage and would rather have their QB take a sack instead of throwing the ball away resulting in a lower completion percentage.

[QUOTE=rats60;17274889]Kareem is the most overrated NBA player of all time.

Namath is the only QB to throw for over 4000 yards under the old rules. He also had one of the quickest releases resulting in one of the lowest sack percentages. It is too bad that people care more about completion percentage and would rather have their QB take a sack instead of throwing the ball away resulting in a lower completion percentage.[/QUOTE]

Agreed with you on Namath over Kareem.

Disagree most over rated. Going with Havlicek.

[QUOTE=rats60;17274889]Kareem is the most overrated NBA player of all time.

Namath is the only QB to throw for over 4000 yards under the old rules. He also had one of the quickest releases resulting in one of the lowest sack percentages. It is too bad that people care more about completion percentage and would rather have their QB take a sack instead of throwing the ball away resulting in a lower completion percentage.[/QUOTE]

Kareem overrated? :doh:

Namath threw 173 TDs to 220 INTs in his career.

I'd still rather have the Namath rookie though.

[QUOTE=Dereth;17276491]Kareem overrated? :doh:

Namath threw 173 TDs to 220 INTs in his career.

I'd still rather have the Namath rookie though.[/QUOTE]

You must not have watched in the 70s when Kareem was missing the playoffs or losing 4-0 to Walton's Blazers and 4-1 to Sikma's Sonics. Namath carried a bunch of mediocre players to a SB championship. Kareem needed a GOAT on his team to win.

[QUOTE=carlo16;16816451]Never heard Mantle named best in his sport.[/QUOTE]Or Lou Gehrig. Or Joe Jackson. Or Tris Speaker. Or Nolan Ryan. Or Rickey Henderson. Or Roberto Clemente.

The 1969-70 Topps Alcindor is overrated. It's a relatively easy vintage card to find in high grade. The 1965 Namath is the opposite. As far as 1960s cards go, it's very challenging to find. The only mainstream cards that I can think of that are tougher are some of the hockey short prints from the previous year (1964-65).