eBay Raw Card Purchases - What's reasonable for a return?
 

I purchased a $500+ raw rookie card recently and just received the package. I don't want to get into the details of the player or card in case the seller is a member here.

The seller had listed two photos of the front of the card in a sleeve and another two of the back of the card in a sleeve. There were no apparent surface issues on the card and I assumed any visible dots and lines were lint and smudges. Fortunately, after gently wiping the card down, all of the dots and lines disappeared and the card looks pristine other than a single "pit" near the center front of the card that wasn't in the pictures and wasn't disclosed.

Based on my inspection, but for that pit, this card might have graded a PSA 9 or 10, but now I'm not sure if it would even get an 8.

Is this something the seller should have disclosed? If so, is this a legitimate reason to return the card? I don't have buyer's remorse. I love the card and I'm happy to keep it for my PC, but I can't help but feel that the issue should have been identified in the description given how prominent it is.

[QUOTE=hypostatic;16390615]I purchased a $500+ raw rookie card recently and just received the package. I don't want to get into the details of the player or card in case the seller is a member here.

The seller had listed two photos of the front of the card in a sleeve and another two of the back of the card in a sleeve. There were no apparent surface issues on the card and I assumed any visible dots and lines were lint and smudges. Fortunately, after gently wiping the card down, all of the dots and lines disappeared and the card looks pristine other than a single "pit" near the center front of the card that wasn't in the pictures and wasn't disclosed.

Based on my inspection, but for that pit, this card might have graded a PSA 9 or 10, but now I'm not sure if it would even get an 8.

Is this something the seller should have disclosed? If so, is this a legitimate reason to return the card? I don't have buyer's remorse. I love the card and I'm happy to keep it for my PC, but I can't help but feel that the issue should have been identified in the description given how prominent it is.[/QUOTE]

What is your ebay user id?

Impossible to answer without seeing the auction and how it was described

Also what questions did you ask before spending $500+ on a raw rookie? Any?

you bought the card raw, take what you got.

if you wanted a PSA 9 or 10 you should of bought one.

Do you enjoy the card and want to keep it in your PC or do you want a high grade and/or maximize profit to resell. Be transparent with us and yourself, please.

If you love the card and are happy to keep it for your PC then why are you asking about returning it?

there is a bit of negligence on both sides here. The seller probably should have mentioned it but you should have asked questions before buying it. When buying raw always ask questions before buying and never assume a raw card is a PSA 9 or 10.

[QUOTE=JLR0747;16390619]What is your ebay user id?[/QUOTE][emoji2960]

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Seller should have disclosed issue but at the same time if you are spending this much on a raw rookie, I hope you asked a lot of questions to the seller too.

Also, dependent on the issue, there could be a chance maybe the seller didnt notice it?

Obviously you don't just care about it to have for your personal collection & you wanted it graded, otherwise you wouldn't have made a post.

Nonetheless, hard to really give much detailed feedback with no pics or seeing the auction to see how the seller described it.

[QUOTE=JLR0747;16390619]What is your ebay user id?[/QUOTE]

This right here

A lot matters when the card is from. I'd say a 6-7 would be acceptable for a card from the 90s or early 2000s. For a card from this year I think if the card has a legitimate shot of grading an 8 that is reasonable.

Did they switch cards on you? Did they somehow obfuscate the issue when taking pictures? Did they inaccurately describe it?
If the answer is No, then I don’t see how it’s right to return it.


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[QUOTE=hypostatic;16390615]I purchased a $500+ raw rookie card recently and just received the package. I don't want to get into the details of the player or card in case the seller is a member here.

The seller had listed two photos of the front of the card in a sleeve and another two of the back of the card in a sleeve. There were no apparent surface issues on the card and I assumed any visible dots and lines were lint and smudges. Fortunately, after gently wiping the card down, all of the dots and lines disappeared and the card looks pristine other than a single "pit" near the center front of the card that wasn't in the pictures and wasn't disclosed.

Based on my inspection, but for that pit, this card might have graded a PSA 9 or 10, but now I'm not sure if it would even get an 8.

Is this something the seller should have disclosed? If so, is this a legitimate reason to return the card? I don't have buyer's remorse. I love the card and I'm happy to keep it for my PC, but I can't help but feel that the issue should have been identified in the description given how prominent it is.[/QUOTE]

if you really want help, give us ALL the info so we can see what you were seeing when you bought the card. otherwise we are just making speculations.

OP, you've done nothing wrong...yet.

There will be people coming into this thread to imply you are a horrible person, a picky buyer, and who knows what else. Some may demand your eBay ID so they can block you. Ignore them.

What you've done is purchase a card and ask a question about it. If someone doesn't think that's okay, then I don't think that person's opinion matters much.

Now, as to your question:

Whether or not a return would be "acceptable" by industry standards is dependent on factors you haven't disclosed. How bad is the flaw? What is the seller's return policy? Is it truly not described properly, including via the pictures? We just don't know, so answering your specific questions is problematic.

If what you're looking for is an accepted standard, you may not find it here. I doubt there will be a consensus as to what is acceptable. A general rule of thumb might be to ask yourself a couple of questions and let your own answers guide you.
Are you maybe being too picky?
Do you feel deceived or cheated?
How would you feel if you were the seller? Would you feel upset? Or would you feel like somebody called you on your bullshyt?
Do you feel the seller was dishonest?
Do you still want the card or is the flaw unacceptable?
Would you have bought the card if you were aware of it's true condition?

The rest is up to you.

Do the right thing.

[QUOTE=hockeyguyrich;16390649]This right here[/QUOTE]

Please provide your user ID so we can block you. This is exactly the reason why people grade their cards :doh:
If you want psa9 or psa10, buy graded cards, period.

I agree, what is your eBay id?

If you wanted a PSA 9 or 10, buy those. You are paying much less for raw, and there is that inherent risk to a raw purchase because we can assume that sellers are not professional graders. If you think they switch the cards on you, then you might have a case.

[QUOTE=JLR0747;16390619]What is your ebay user id?[/QUOTE]

This right here. I mean wow. Card is definitely NMT-MT, so fair raw.

If you buy to slab then you should be meeting the person or you should have dealt with them before. Now if you buy raw thats it you don't buy expecting a 9 or 10 or just buy a 9 or 10. Now after you cleaned it the divit showed. Did you accidently cause this I don't know. But you did admit to cleaning the front of card nothing wrong with that just well accidents happen. And last without info or pics then its impossible to give any real advice.

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Also the hobby has changed a lot in the last 20 years since you got back in just recently id say be careful on what you spend online in person is the way to go for raw. Or just stick to stock x and tennis shoes.

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Raw is Raw.. If you wanted a PSA 9 or 10, then pay the premium.

What people forget is that most raws are NM-MT. Per PSA , NM-MT are Grade 7-8 . 9 or 10 are Mint and above.

The answers you've gotten are because of the lack of information. I don't think you're going to get a response you want (or hear that it's okay to return) without giving some more information. Everything is a factor.

Was it intentional deception? Did you buy it on auction? Does the seller have a history of shadiness? Is this card an older card? Is it from a set that always has defects?

All of those questions would come in to play but can't be answered because of the lack of information.

[QUOTE=JustRachel;16390690]OP, you've done nothing wrong...yet.

There will be people coming into this thread to imply you are a horrible person, a picky buyer, and who knows what else. Some may demand your eBay ID so they can block you. Ignore them.

What you've done is purchase a card and ask a question about it. If someone doesn't think that's okay, then I don't think that person's opinion matters much.

Now, as to your question:

Whether or not a return would be "acceptable" by industry standards is dependent on factors you haven't disclosed. How bad is the flaw? What is the seller's return policy? Is it truly not described properly, including via the pictures? We just don't know, so answering your specific questions is problematic.

If what you're looking for is an accepted standard, you may not find it here. I doubt there will be a consensus as to what is acceptable. A general rule of thumb might be to ask yourself a couple of questions and let your own answers guide you.
Are you maybe being too picky?
Do you feel deceived or cheated?
How would you feel if you were the seller? Would you feel upset? Or would you feel like somebody called you on your bullshyt?
Do you feel the seller was dishonest?
Do you still want the card or is the flaw unacceptable?
Would you have bought the card if you were aware of it's true condition?

The rest is up to you.

Do the right thing.[/QUOTE]


you are correct in many ways in this, he has done nothing wrong in asking. but we cannot accurately or honestly answer his question without additional info.

"There were no apparent surface issues on the card and I assumed any visible dots and lines were lint and smudges."

without knowing exactly what he was looking at when he bought the card

- were those visible dots actually lint or damage - we have seen numerous times when presented the original photos that the damage can be seen. i am not saying this is the case here, because we do not have that info.

- did he ask for additional questions or for more photos prior to buying or did he just buy and hope "this card might have graded a PSA 9 or 10"

when only getting a partial story it is hard to give accurate advice

the immediate jumps to "what is your ebay user ID so I can label you as a scammer" are interesting. makes me wonder how many cards with undisclosed issues these guys sell.

I occasionally return raw cards, but usually it has to be a certain threshold (recently a couple 1/2" marks that were not visible in the picture). typically don't ask too many questions about raw cards, sometimes "are there any obvious issues that you know of" but don't really expect a lot of honesty over ebay messages.

as for the OP, more info would be nice but I don't think a common issue like a surface dimple is worthy of return. probably should have been voluntarily disclosed by seller but I don't really expect much out of ebay sellers

[QUOTE=Spacemanspif;16390727]the immediate jumps to "what is your ebay user ID so I can label you as a scammer" are interesting. makes me wonder how many cards with undisclosed issues these guys sell.

I occasionally return raw cards, but usually it has to be a certain threshold (recently a couple 1/2" marks that were not visible in the picture). typically don't ask too many questions about raw cards, sometimes "are there any obvious issues that you know of" but don't really expect a lot of honesty over ebay messages.

as for the OP, more info would be nice but[B] I don't think a common issue like a surface dimple is worthy of return. probably should have been voluntarily disclosed by seller[/B] but I don't really expect much out of ebay sellers[/QUOTE]

i agree with this, but we do not know if it was visible or not. so while it may not have been disclosed in writing, it may have been disclosed in the pictures.

Thanks for this reasonable response. To answer your specific question, I do feel a little deceived because the card was in a dirty sleeve in the pictures. If I were the seller and someone asked for a return, I'd think someone called me on my BS listing.

Separately, I didn't realize this would evoke such strong feelings from so many people. I thought it was pretty clear that I wouldn't be returning the card. I literally stated that. I was simply asking if this would be a legitimate reason for a return. What I was ultimately getting at was how to handle a situation where the seller didn't disclose a noticeable flaw. [B]Point taken that I didn't ask more detailed questions prior to purchasing.[/B] Hopefully my future buyers are as charitable as the commenters here.

The card is a SSP case hit and I plan on acquiring as many copies of it as I can find for grading purposes for my PC, for what it's worth. I would have probably purchased this specific card either way. I was just trying to understand how I should feel in this situation based on the experience of others, if that makes sense. I just started collecting basketball cards again after 20 years--thanks for the warm welcome back!


[QUOTE=JustRachel;16390690]OP, you've done nothing wrong...yet.

There will be people coming into this thread to imply you are a horrible person, a picky buyer, and who knows what else. Some may demand your eBay ID so they can block you. Ignore them.

What you've done is purchase a card and ask a question about it. If someone doesn't think that's okay, then I don't think that person's opinion matters much.

Now, as to your question:

Whether or not a return would be "acceptable" by industry standards is dependent on factors you haven't disclosed. How bad is the flaw? What is the seller's return policy? Is it truly not described properly, including via the pictures? We just don't know, so answering your specific questions is problematic.

If what you're looking for is an accepted standard, you may not find it here. I doubt there will be a consensus as to what is acceptable. A general rule of thumb might be to ask yourself a couple of questions and let your own answers guide you.
Are you maybe being too picky?
Do you feel deceived or cheated?
How would you feel if you were the seller? Would you feel upset? Or would you feel like somebody called you on your bullshyt?
Do you feel the seller was dishonest?
Do you still want the card or is the flaw unacceptable?
Would you have bought the card if you were aware of it's true condition?

The rest is up to you.

Do the right thing.[/QUOTE]

Guys - can't we give OP the benefit of the doubt? If you can appreciate there are a lot of buyers out there making things difficult for sellers, surely you can appreciate that there are also a lot of sellers out there making things difficult for buyers too. We're all fatigued with cheats and scammers, so let's not make it harder for each other.

OP's post history shows that he's only just got back into basketball cards after 20 years away - I don't think it's unreasonable to have some questions. He also said he is happy to keep the card. A civil conversation about what is good raw card buying / selling practice and etiquette will be more helpful to OP and other new people reading on than jumping down his throat to block him.

To answer your question OP - My personal position is that I'm rolling the dice with raw cards. I generally won't ask any sellers questions on lower priced stuff (basically anything under $100), but above that I'll ask the seller for additional pictures before I make a purchase if I'm not happy with what I can see on the listing. That doesn't help you in this scenario, but as you said you are happy to keep the card as is, I'd take it as a teachable moment and move on.

You want a graded card then buy a graded card. Period!

I would like to block everyone who comes into these threads and says “please provide your eBay ID.”

The worst of the worst in this hobby and the type of people who chase off anyone normal who wants to get into collecting.

[QUOTE=Absknicks;16390785]

The worst of the worst in this hobby.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like someone is a scammer who steals from people, posts fake autographs and passes them off as real, searches packs, sends back empty cardboard in a return, and trims cards.

op i purchased this, looks fine in the scan right?

[IMG]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Tn4AAOSw5PhfLkYS/s-l500.jpg[/IMG]

well the retard who pulled it depressed his thumbnail right into the face of the card

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/zOjB8hq.jpg[/IMG]

scanned cards in sleeves can be very deceiving

I've asked a similar question before. Biggest question is how he described It. If he says this card is near mint or better, than as long as it would be an 8, you got your money's worth. If the auction says "FIRE INVEST PSA 10. GUARANTEED MINT". Then I say a return is well within your right

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[QUOTE=hypostatic;16390745]Thanks for this reasonable response. To answer your specific question, I do feel a little deceived because the card was in a dirty sleeve in the pictures. If I were the seller and someone asked for a return, I'd think someone called me on my BS listing.



Separately, I didn't realize this would evoke such strong feelings from so many people. I thought it was pretty clear that I wouldn't be returning the card. I literally stated that. I was simply asking if this would be a legitimate reason for a return. What I was ultimately getting at was how to handle a situation where the seller didn't disclose a noticeable flaw. [B]Point taken that I didn't ask more detailed questions prior to purchasing.[/B] Hopefully my future buyers are as charitable as the commenters here.



The card is a SSP case hit and I plan on acquiring as many copies of it as I can find for grading purposes for my PC, for what it's worth. I would have probably purchased this specific card either way. I was just trying to understand how I should feel in this situation based on the experience of others, if that makes sense. I just started collecting basketball cards again after 20 years--thanks for the warm welcome back![/QUOTE]Welcome back to the hobby.

I wish things on the raw card market were better, but we live in this world, not the fantasy world I wish we had, lol. There are buyers and sellers of all types out there. Just in this thread there have been lots of positions taken on the subject. Some people consistently expose their jackassery, and some their honor. It's no different than anywhere else, I suppose.

If a seller can't be bothered to take the card out of the toploader, doesn't have time to describe it, or claims some crap about not being a professional grader (all dealers of raw singles are inherently graders), you can just move on. I'm not saying those are shady sellers; I'm just saying sometimes a little extra skepticism is warranted.

Know that it's okay to ask questions of sellers on eBay. If you don't get an answer you're cool with, move on. The best advice might be to do your best to avoid these situations in the first place.

Good luck to you. Enjoy the hobby.

Edit to Add: You've gotten some good responses here. Ultimately, how you handle this is your decision. You seem reasonable. You know your answer.

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[QUOTE=SlickRick;16390821]I've asked a similar question before. Biggest question is how he described It. If he says this card is near mint or better, than as long as it would be an 8, you got your money's worth. If the auction says "FIRE INVEST PSA 10. GUARANTEED MINT". Then I say a return is well within your right

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Great point.

[QUOTE=SlickRick;16390821]I've asked a similar question before. Biggest question is how he described It. If he says this card is near mint or better, than as long as it would be an 8, you got your money's worth. If the auction says "FIRE INVEST PSA 10. GUARANTEED MINT". Then I say a return is well within your right

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Exactly what I said on the first page.

We need to see the auction so we can accurately judge the pictures and description.

Not sure why he hasn't linked it

[QUOTE=Justin7;16390791]Sounds like someone is a scammer who steals from people, posts fake autographs and passes them off as real, searches packs, sends back empty cardboard in a return, and trims cards.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you’re projecting, dude. Better yourself so normal people aren’t scared off. It’s already a small niche hobby as is

[QUOTE=Absknicks;16390837]Sounds like you’re projecting, dude. Better yourself so normal people aren’t scared off. It’s already a small niche hobby as is[/QUOTE]

Nah scumbag, if you think people choosing who they do and dont want to sell too is "the worst in the hobby" it means you must be a card trimmer, pack searcher, and thief. Only explanation since those are the worst of the worst in the hobby. Normal people know we all have a right to sell to whoever we want to and not sell to whoever we want to. Better yourself.

[QUOTE=cboog3105;16390795]op i purchased this, looks fine in the scan right?

[IMG]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Tn4AAOSw5PhfLkYS/s-l500.jpg[/IMG]

well the retard who pulled it depressed his thumbnail right into the face of the card

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/zOjB8hq.jpg[/IMG]

scanned cards in sleeves can be very deceiving[/QUOTE]

I don't think "retard" is an acceptable term these days....or so I'm told.

That type of fingernail indention is on a TON of cards these days. Doesn't mean the person that pulled it had anything to do with it.

That being said, something like that should 100% be disclosed and highlighted in a listing.

[QUOTE=asujbl;16390829]Exactly what I said on the first page.

We need to see the auction so we can accurately judge the pictures and description.

Not sure why he hasn't linked it[/QUOTE]

this!

op can 100% be correct, but he can also be 100% wrong. we have no way of knowing.

to those saying give him the benefit of the doubt. put yourself in the seller's situation. without knowing what that was, would you want a bunch of people on a message board telling this person it is ok to return this card?

[QUOTE=Spacemanspif;16390727]the immediate jumps to "what is your ebay user ID so I can label you as a scammer" are interesting. makes me wonder how many cards with undisclosed issues these guys sell.
[/QUOTE]

People act like it's impossible to get a sh*t card. I ordered about 10 Kurt Warner Rookie cards off of COMC.

Sellers KNOW they are supposed to be sending Near Mint cards, at the least.

1 card I received had water damage on the back where the surface had bubbled away showing white. How COMC missed it, idk. Another had a front surface that looked like it was laid face down over pebbles and stepped on.

The seller more than likely knew

[QUOTE=Archangel1775;16390864]People act like it's impossible to get a sh*t card. I ordered about 10 Kurt Warner Rookie cards off of COMC.

Sellers KNOW they are supposed to be sending Near Mint cards, at the least.

1 card I received had water damage on the back where the surface had bubbled away showing white. How COMC missed it, idk. Another had a front surface that looked like it was laid face down over pebbles and stepped on.

Sh*t happens[/QUOTE]

The difference between your story and OP's factory surface dimple is as wide as the grand canyon! Of course that's possible but not what happened here at least from what it sounds like.

[QUOTE=Absknicks;16390785][B]I would like to block everyone who comes into these threads and says “please provide your eBay ID.” [/B]

The worst of the worst in this hobby and the type of people who chase off anyone normal who wants to get into collecting.[/QUOTE]

The issue I have is when this type of member doesn't add anything constructive to the topic at hand or ANY conversation at all in these forums. Simply posting "ebay ID?" and "blocked" makes me wonder how that hamster wheel spins. Then there are the ones that do creepy sh*t like dig for the OPs private information and start posting it. Whoopty f*cking do, damn weirdos. It really makes me wonder why they're even on these boards.

[QUOTE=Justin7;16390868]The difference between your story and OP's factory surface dimple is as wide as the grand canyon! Of course that's possible but not what happened here at least from what it sounds like.[/QUOTE]

My point is, the seller more than likely knew they were selling a card with a serious issue. Reading back, I didnt convey that very well. Could the seller of the card not known about that dimple, sure. But seeing that it's a modern card worth $500 plus and ungraded, I'm sure they did. The seller definitely should have disclosed any major surface issues that are tough to see with a regular scan.

[QUOTE=Archangel1775;16390909]My point is, the seller more than likely knew they were selling a card with a serious issue. Could the seller of the card not known about that dimple, sure. But seeing that it's a modern card worth $500 plus and ungraded, I'm sure they did.[/QUOTE]

The buyer also "cleaned" the card and could've caused the dimple themselves, which perhaps is why the listing in question has not been shared. Not saying on purpose, but stuff like that happens. Also if it's small it's definitely nm-mt and totally depends on the listing, doesn't sound like a serious issue from how it was described but maybe not both examples given here of bad raw cards like the fingernail imprint were serious issues but a factory dimple is not. Honestly, just need to see the listing. This is nothing like your case of a water damaged card though.

[QUOTE=Archangel1775;16390909]My point is, the seller more than likely knew they were selling a card with a serious issue. Could the seller of the card not known about that dimple, sure. But seeing that it's a modern card worth $500 plus and ungraded, I'm sure they did.[/QUOTE]

true - and this is exactly the reason for us getting additional info

for example - is this card pictured at an angle in bad lighting inside a sleeve and top loader while everything else the seller is selling is scanned perfectly?

that would definitely prove the seller was attempting to hide it

conversely, is this card scanned perfectly from multiple angels showing what potentially could be an issue.

this would show the op should have asked questions or actually have seen the damage despite it not being noted in the description. especially since we all know how thoroughly buyers read descriptions these days :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=JLR0747;16390619]What is your ebay user id?[/QUOTE]

I want to know too.

to me, there are too many "new people" jumping into the hobby without educating themselves as to what they are buying simply because someone told them buy this card, get it graded, and make money.

too often, these people buy a card that all of us veterans would instantly recognize as an 8 or possibly a 9 at best (but 9 would be on a lucky day) thinking they are buying a gem 10, and when they get it on hand, there is a minor flaw (which was visible had they known what to look for), and then come running for help asking if it is ok to return the card.

not saying this is the case here since we do not have the whole picture, but i have seen it often enough the past 3-4 months that has caused me to become more skeptical.

[QUOTE=Justin7;16390920]The buyer also "cleaned" the card and could've caused the dimple themselves, which perhaps is why the listing in question has not been shared. Not saying on purpose, but stuff like that happens. Also if it's small it's definitely nm-mt and totally depends on the listing, doesn't sound like a serious issue from how it was described but maybe not both examples given here of bad raw cards like the fingernail imprint were serious issues but a factory dimple is not. Honestly, just need to see the listing. This is nothing like your case of a water damaged card though.[/QUOTE]

Realistically, I'm not sure how gently wiping a card down can cause a dimple. Tough situation for the seller though. If they truly didn't know about it and now it's there, what can they do. That's the risk of being a seller on eBay. Sucks.

[QUOTE=Archangel1775;16390968]Realistically, I'm not sure how gently wiping a card down can cause a dimple. Tough situation for the seller though. If they truly didn't know about it and now it's there, what can they do. That's the risk of being a seller on eBay. Sucks.[/QUOTE]

Yeah not sure. I do this myself with a microfiber towel and recently I wiped down a Ben simmons Hoops rookie and there was a piece of dirt or whatever that was so stuck to the card that it ripped the surface when I wiped it off. Totally my fault. So I did literally just cause damage to a card by wiping the surface, I of course did not mention this to the seller or return the card because it's my fault.

I only buy cards out of plastic and if it's not and I'm interested, I will ask for photos out of plastic. And I buy a lot of raw vintage, so I figure one card out of 10 will be total crap and accept that as the price of what I'm doing. If someone describes a card as near mint and there are surface wrinkles that don't show up in a photo, or a stain hidden by masterful camera positioning, those get returned no matter what their return policy is.

As a seller, I offer 30-day returns for any reason whatsoever. There's enough unhappiness and misery in the world without causing more.

Well, this thread has definitely opened my eyes. When I sell raw I always specifically point out anything I believe would make the card grade under a 9. Probably gonna drop that threshold to 8 now based on what I'm seeing here.

It honestly doesn't matter anymore.

The market is broken.

If you don't like it, you can send it back.

Sellers are only ones who can be harmed anymore -- even when they're completely transparent.

Buyer beware when buying raw. But don’t be shy to ask for more pictures and to flat out ask if there are scratches or pits on the card. I know some sellers find that annoying but full disclosure will solve all these problems. If the seller won’t accommodate your requests then you’ve gotten a Clear indication that card is not for you.

If you feel deceived its probably justified.

It's 2020, any decent phone can take good picks.... there is no reason to not have good images on an auction of anything worth over $20 unless your hiding something.

surface dimples are common on chrome cards so I wouldn't worry about it too much, if you couldn't see it until you wiped it off then it isn't worth fretting over.

All I read was "I wanted a certain grade on this raw card but I wanted to pay raw prices. Now I'm mad I won't be able to get a better grade than I paid for."

I'll say this until I'm no longer a member, you want a certain grade, buy a graded version. Sick of having to examine every single speck of a card these days because people want a graded card without having to pay for it. Really takes the fun out of collecting.

[QUOTE=JustRachel;16390690]OP, you've done nothing wrong...yet.

There will be people coming into this thread to imply you are a horrible person, a picky buyer, and who knows what else. Some may demand your eBay ID so they can block you. Ignore them.

What you've done is purchase a card and ask a question about it. If someone doesn't think that's okay, then I don't think that person's opinion matters much.

Now, as to your question:

Whether or not a return would be "acceptable" by industry standards is dependent on factors you haven't disclosed. How bad is the flaw? What is the seller's return policy? Is it truly not described properly, including via the pictures? We just don't know, so answering your specific questions is problematic.

If what you're looking for is an accepted standard, you may not find it here. I doubt there will be a consensus as to what is acceptable. A general rule of thumb might be to ask yourself a couple of questions and let your own answers guide you.
Are you maybe being too picky?
Do you feel deceived or cheated?
How would you feel if you were the seller? Would you feel upset? Or would you feel like somebody called you on your bullshyt?
Do you feel the seller was dishonest?
Do you still want the card or is the flaw unacceptable?
Would you have bought the card if you were aware of it's true condition?

The rest is up to you.

Do the right thing.[/QUOTE]

Very well said

[QUOTE=JLR0747;16390619]What is your ebay user id?[/QUOTE]

The real MVP.

Sure, everyone's got an opinion on what's acceptable. Me personally, I'd rather avoid anyone simply buying-to-grade because their expectations are that you're sending them a voucher redeemable for a gold bar, because that's what they've been led to believe.

Myself, I only buy cards that I want for my PC, so I'm not bothered at all if some flipper doesn't come round my way. Our worlds don't collide.

[QUOTE=1980bust;16392205]The real MVP.

Sure, everyone's got an opinion on what's acceptable. Me personally, I'd rather avoid anyone simply buying-to-grade because their expectations are that you're sending them a voucher redeemable for a gold bar, because that's what they've been led to believe.

Myself, I only buy cards that I want for my PC, so I'm not bothered at all if some flipper doesn't come round my way. Our worlds don't collide.[/QUOTE]

It's pretty easy to avoid those gem miner buyers. Just disclose the flaws. Or say, "this card will not gem". Sadly, too many shady sellers want to maximize profits by [I]not[/I] avoiding these buyers and then complain when they get returns.

I find that kinda funny.

[QUOTE=JustRachel;16392318]It's pretty easy to avoid those gem miner buyers. Just disclose the flaws. Or say, "this card will not gem". Sadly, too many shady sellers want to maximize profits by [I]not[/I] avoiding these buyers and then complain when they get returns.

I find that kinda funny.[/QUOTE]

Your point about disclosing flaws is completely subjective. OP pointed out seeing a tiny divot AFTER cleaning the card. Now, to OP that is a flaw, to many others in this thread, it's not a flaw. So who's right?

Unless we establish a universal flaw finding and rating system, everyone will have different levels they're happy with. Unless it's a scratch, an auto smudge, or damage that's really obvious, and even then different people will tolerate different stuff.

Sure, there's shady sellers out there, no doubt. But the vast majority aren't, yet gem mining (as you phrase it) is almost everywhere.

Me personally, I hate the whole grading thing, and I hate the effect it's having on everything. So I avoid it - just like OP and everyone else can avoid raw cards if what they're really after is a PSA 10. It's not hard to be honest with yourself what your intentions are - if you want a gem, pay for it. If you want to find a low priced card for the chance it MIGHT gem and net you a massive profit, then that's the gamble you're taking. It's not on raw sellers to guarantee your purchases come back gem after you send them off for grading.

[QUOTE=1980bust;16392432]Your point about disclosing flaws is completely subjective. OP pointed out seeing a tiny divot AFTER cleaning the card. Now, to OP that is a flaw, to many others in this thread, it's not a flaw. So who's right?

Unless we establish a universal flaw finding and rating system, everyone will have different levels they're happy with. Unless it's a scratch, an auto smudge, or damage that's really obvious, and even then different people will tolerate different stuff.

Sure, there's shady sellers out there, no doubt. But the vast majority aren't, yet gem mining (as you phrase it) is almost everywhere.

Me personally, I hate the whole grading thing, and I hate the effect it's having on everything. So I avoid it - just like OP and everyone else can avoid raw cards if what they're really after is a PSA 10. It's not hard to be honest with yourself what your intentions are - if you want a gem, pay for it. If you want to find a low priced card for the chance it MIGHT gem and net you a massive profit, then that's the gamble you're taking. It's not on raw sellers to guarantee your purchases come back gem after you send them off for grading.[/QUOTE]

I hear you. And I don't disagree, except for the last part. Why do buyers need to gamble? Where else is that the norm? Why can't sellers describe what they're selling?

This concept isn't hard. It's really not. Just be honest. As my husband always says, Don't Be An A$$hole. Be honest. It's not hard.

You don't need to say "this card is a 10" or a 9 or an 8 or whatever. All sellers need to do is point out flaws. Just say "this card has a surface dimple"...or take a pic of the print line....or whatever. Just don't be an a$$hole. Easy peasy, no?

If sellers don't want to do that, or can't be bothered to actually look at their cards, or are too freaking stupid to spot flaws (as if I believe "I am not a pro grader, lol), then they are going to get returns. That is a fact, like it or not. And those returns will not be optional.

Sellers get to decide for themselves, are they going to disclose condition, or are they going to get a lot of returns. That's just the way it is. I don't make the rules. I just dislike when sellers choose not to disclose true condition and then whine about returns. Sellers, you get to choose one, not both.

I say this as a seller. Yes, it's true...I sell probably four times as much as I buy on the Bay. The shady sellers out there are taking food off of the tables of honest sellers. I disclose flaws. For sellers that don't, don't expect sympathy from me.

Just do the right thing. It's not hard. Seriously.


Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=JustRachel;16392654]Why do buyers need to gamble? Where else is that the norm? Why can't sellers describe what they're selling? [/QUOTE]

The gamble I was referring to was buying a raw card for low $$$, hoping that when you inevitably send it to get graded that it comes back a gem you can sell for high $$$ - not gambling on whether a seller is giving you the card described in the listing or not.

I don't know the answer but I find myself in the same boat tonight. I've only ever requested a return on a card once but I bought this Mahomes last week on eBay and it is beat up. I know, if I want a mint card, buy a PSA 9 or more. But where is the line in when a seller needs to disclose? Normally I give a pass for minor surface issues because it could be missed when listing, especially if the seller is a volume seller. But when the entire surface is beat? I don't know, hard to miss it and it seems more scammy from the seller - purposely not including condition issues in the listing.

[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200903/afdef4b98cf8ba0fd366c38d80bd34e0.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200903/f177a193774ff668daa9348dc811c55e.jpg[/IMG]

The 2 photos from the listing:
[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200903/3307d46c47cdd310e264d5aaf560e4f5.jpg[/IMG][IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200903/969e808fcb95f837ba72fa9c0a6c637e.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=JustRachel;16392654]I hear you. And I don't disagree, except for the last part. Why do buyers need to gamble? Where else is that the norm? Why can't sellers describe what they're selling?

This concept isn't hard. It's really not. Just be honest. As my husband always says, Don't Be An A$$hole. Be honest. It's not hard.

You don't need to say "this card is a 10" or a 9 or an 8 or whatever. All sellers need to do is point out flaws. Just say "this card has a surface dimple"...or take a pic of the print line....or whatever. Just don't be an a$$hole. Easy peasy, no?

If sellers don't want to do that, or can't be bothered to actually look at their cards, or are too freaking stupid to spot flaws (as if I believe "I am not a pro grader, lol), then they are going to get returns. That is a fact, like it or not. And those returns will not be optional.

Sellers get to decide for themselves, [B]are they going to disclose condition, or are they going to get a lot of returns[/B]. That's just the way it is. I don't make the rules. I just dislike when sellers choose not to disclose true condition and then whine about returns. [B]Sellers, you get to choose one, not both[/B].

I say this as a seller. Yes, it's true...I sell probably four times as much as I buy on the Bay. The shady sellers out there are taking food off of the tables of honest sellers. I disclose flaws. For sellers that don't, don't expect sympathy from me.

Just do the right thing. It's not hard. Seriously.


Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

+1

I have the "I'm not a professional grader blah blah" on my listings, but I do grade, so if anything is less than a 9 in my opinion, I have a "condition" section of my listings where I'll note if it has a surface scratch or whatever. I've advised buyers to not buy from me if they're obviously gem hunting, and had to re-sell plenty of cards at a loss because a seller didn't disclose issues with the condition.

if you're a seller who can't 1) take care of your cards or 2) properly describe your cards, don't get all pissy when people want to return them or at least not pay a premium for your smudgey dinged up crap.

You bought a raw card and then altered it. It’s yours now.

[QUOTE=pingbling23;16393325]You bought a raw card and then altered it. It’s yours now.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your contribution. I'm new, but I can tell that you're one of the good guys/gals around here. :rolleyes: I didn't alter the card by wiping away lint with a soft tissue and then noticing a pin-dot pit/depression in the center of the card I just pulled out of the dirty penny sleeve.

As I clarified in a follow up post, I was always planning on keeping the card and I plan on buying as many copies that come up for sale of this SSP card because I love the card. I would have bought this card whether the issue was disclosed or not, and I'll have it and all others graded irrespective of defects.

I get that not everyone has the best reading comprehension skills, but if we can try our best to focus on the issue here, we might have had a better discussion on [B]what to do when you feel deceived by a seller who could have disclosed something but hid it under a dirty sleeve.[/B]

It feels like there are a lot of sellers on here that love to complain about selling on ebay but who just love to take advantage that buyers can't actually look at the card before purchasing.

The argument that there isn't a universal standard seems really weak; if you've noticed a flaw on the card that doesn't show up in your photo (print-line, scratch, dimple) and it is the reason you're not grading it, not disclosing that is an attempt to swindle the buyer and have them pay a higher price for it than it is worth. If the buyer doesn't care, they'll buy the card for that price.

Also, the argument that the buyer should have to ask specific questions about the condition of the card in order to find out the truth from you that you already know is shameful.

Sadly, after reading these threads, it appears to me that card sellers have earned the drastic ebay return policy.

Most do not grade. Raw card is a raw card. Pack pulled and the way it was issued. Not all cards are gem mint folks. Stop buying raw cards if you want gem mint.

[QUOTE=FuzzySparkles;16393766]The argument that there isn't a universal standard seems really weak; if you've noticed a flaw on the card that doesn't show up in your photo (print-line, scratch, dimple) and it is the reason you're not grading it, not disclosing that is an attempt to swindle the buyer and have them pay a higher price for it than it is worth. If the buyer doesn't care, they'll buy the card for that price.[/QUOTE]

Your assumption here is that everybody should be grading every card they have. Which is nonsense. I know I'm not the only one who hates slabbed cards, so I only buy raw and this is why when I decide to sell anything it's raw. I use high-quality pics (usually around 10) in listings anyway, so there's enough for buyers to inspect anyways, along with any condition notes in the listing.

If you think I'm gonna wait 6+ months to grade a card just so I can then sell it to someone who'll probably want to return it because there's a scratch the size of a bee's dick on the case, then you're sadly mistaken.

You think a universal standard is a weak argument because you list some really obvious flaw examples, yet the entire reason for this thread is a tiny divot only visible after cleaning the card by OP, which multiple people have said they wouldn't consider a flaw, while multiple others would. Do you even context?

What’s your eBay handle?

[QUOTE=FuzzySparkles;16393766]It feels like there are a lot of sellers on here that love to complain about selling on ebay but who just love to take advantage that buyers can't actually look at the card before purchasing.

The argument that there isn't a universal standard seems really weak; if you've noticed a flaw on the card that doesn't show up in your photo (print-line, scratch, dimple) and it is the reason you're not grading it, not disclosing that is an attempt to swindle the buyer and have them pay a higher price for it than it is worth. If the buyer doesn't care, they'll buy the card for that price.

Also, the argument that the buyer should have to ask specific questions about the condition of the card in order to find out the truth from you that you already know is shameful.

Sadly, after reading these threads, it appears to me that card sellers have earned the drastic ebay return policy.[/QUOTE]Yes.

There are quite a few excellent posts in this thread. This is one of them.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk

Most of us are sellers here and it's a sore spot for sure. I hate hearing that "beep" on the ebay app and seeing that the buyer initiated a return. HATE seeing that...ruins my day...sorta! lol

So, not going to get any love here for any type of return (legit or not).

still waiting on that ebay id....

Related: I know most posters here take the side of the ebay seller, but what do people think about this?

[url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-19-Panini-Revolution-Rookie-Autograph-Luka-Doncic-AUTO-Pristine-Gem-Mint-RC/124332071997[/url]

"Pristine"
"Gem Mint"

I messaged the seller to ask if they'd accept a return if I subbed to BGS and it didn't get a 10 - they responded by calling me a loser and asked if I was the listing police.

I'm tempted to buy and sub express and see what happens. IMO - sellers deserve all the returns when they do stuff like this. Easily an "item not as described" if I'd sub and not get a 10.

[QUOTE=TSonn;16417775]Related: I know most posters here take the side of the ebay seller, but what do people think about this?

[url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-19-Panini-Revolution-Rookie-Autograph-Luka-Doncic-AUTO-Pristine-Gem-Mint-RC/124332071997[/url]

"Pristine"
"Gem Mint"

I messaged the seller to ask if they'd accept a return if I subbed to BGS and it didn't get a 10 - they responded by calling me a loser and asked if I was the listing police.

I'm tempted to buy and sub express and see what happens. IMO - sellers deserve all the returns when they do stuff like this. Easily an "item not as described" if I'd sub and not get a 10.[/QUOTE]

plus give it the old "it's not his real sig" with your newly slabbed BGS 9 Auto 10 ;)

[CODE][/CODE][QUOTE=TSonn;16417775]Related: I know most posters here take the side of the ebay seller, but what do people think about this?

[url]https://www.ebay.com/itm/2018-19-Panini-Revolution-Rookie-Autograph-Luka-Doncic-AUTO-Pristine-Gem-Mint-RC/124332071997[/url]

"Pristine"
"Gem Mint"

I messaged the seller to ask if they'd accept a return if I subbed to BGS and it didn't get a 10 - they responded by calling me a loser and asked if I was the listing police.

I'm tempted to buy and sub express and see what happens. IMO - sellers deserve all the returns when they do stuff like this. Easily an "item not as described" if I'd sub and not get a 10.[/QUOTE]

"Pristine gem mint" also here is a clear photo of the dinged corner. Lol it's right there, I can go ahead and tell you right now it's definitely not a 10. I wish Ebay would take more seriously the fire emoji invest psa 10? Gem mint pristine listings they are gross.

[QUOTE=Justin7;16418092][CODE][/CODE]

"Pristine gem mint" also here is a clear photo of the dinged corner. Lol it's right there, I can go ahead and tell you right now it's definitely not a 10. I wish Ebay would take more seriously the fire emoji invest psa 10? Gem mint pristine listings they are gross.[/QUOTE]

Oh man good catch.

[QUOTE=JLR0747;16390619]What is your ebay user id?[/QUOTE]

YES!!! LOL