Kobe fans - why do you think he's one of the greatest?
 

First off, this isn't some kind of troll thread. I'm not here to start a fight, though that's what will inevitably happen, I'm sure. I'm just honestly curious about this.

And I also don't want anyone to think I feel Kobe is some scrub. He was great, obviously. But like, top 10-15 all-time great.

But every time I see these GOAT threads rolled out, it's always the same names, and justifiably so: MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird, etc etc.

This isn't a discussion about who GOAT is. Some say MJ, some say Lebron. Some say Kareem. They all have valid points. I'm not here to argue about that.

What I am curious about though is that Kobe's name somehow also always ends up in these lists of names, but why? Is it just the rings? Because honestly there isn't much else to support it.

First off, let me link to the basketball-reference pages for all the above names:

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html"]MJ[/URL]

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html"]Lebron[/URL]

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html"]Kareem[/URL]

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html"]Wilt[/URL]

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/russebi01.html"]Russell[/URL]

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html"]Magic[/URL]

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html"]Bird[/URL]

[URL="https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html"]Kobe[/URL]

Certainly one would think that the greatest players of all time would be voted MVPs. Well, every player on that list has at _least_ 3 of them. All of them but Kobe, that is.

But let's go into some numbers. You click on literally ANY of those players and go to the 'Advanced' section, there are all kinds of metrics for value - PER, win shares, win shares/48, offensive/defensive/overall box plus/minus, VORP, etc. Bold numbers mean that they led the league. All those players have multiple bolds all over the place. I mean, look at MJ's and Lebron's. Bold everywhere.

Kobe literally has 0. The only bold he does have is in usage rate, which isn't a huge surprise - he had the ball a lot.

People talk about how Kobe was a killer, or Mamba mentality, or whatever you want to call it. Ok, that's fine - but how did that translate into actual value? Kobe played for a long time - and he never led the league in any value-related metric? Not once? When every other player on any GOAT discussion has had multiple? Is this just a coincidence?

I don't want this to sound like I'm being antagonistic or something, but I'm not - I'm genuinely dumbfounded. How can anyone make the case that Kobe belongs in the truly top tier of basketball players all-time? Am I missing something?

I don’t see a stat for killer instinct, hating to lose more than loving to win and the uncanny ability to work harder than anybody else. Other than Jordan I think Kobe leads all of these categories against the names you mentioned

Edit Also you can’t discredit the;

18 all-star games
15 all nba teams
12 all defensive teams
1 MVP
2 finals MVP’s
5 championships
2x scoring champ
4th all time in points

Seems like You’re cherry picking but whatever

Titles count

For one game, only guy I’m taking over Kobe is MJ.

most overrated player ever by casualfan... rip

He is one of the greatest scorer of all time. 1 eighty-point game, 6 sixty-point games (including his final game), 26 fifty-point games, and 134 forty-point games in his entire career. He won back to back championships after hitting the dreaded 30 year cap with a team of 1 all star and reserves. Did MJ ever do that? Played 20 consecutive years with one team and won 5 championships and 18 all star selections out of a 20 year career. He is third all time in total scoring and post scoring. Nobody does it like Mamba with a transition from the 90’s, 2000’s and 0′10s. It’s always going to be a debate on who’s the GOAT but to make the argument for Kobe he was able to accomplish what the other greats accomplished as far as winning but not having the same physical gifts. MJ and LeBron are both bigger stronger and faster and more athletic, Kareem is over 7′0″ with an unstoppable shot, Magic was a 6′8″ point guard so for Kobe to even compete with that he had to be more skilled and work even harder.

few things

1. ability to score is Goat level, right up there with MJ despite being less athletic
2.intangibles (determination, legendary work ethic)
3. a LOT of memorable and career defining games, similar to MJ
4. must see tv, whether you love to see him rise or fail
5. well spoken, a good ambassador for brands like mj
6.proven as an elite 2 way player
7. revered by his peers, pretty much the ultimate compliment for a player
8. offensively, probably the most skilled in the game in terms of overall balance
9. 5 championships
10. 81 points


kobe’s gift was also his curse (hero ball) his advance stats was severely hurt by it thats why he’s not considered by most as a Top 10 player. his colorado thing and his feud with shaq were also detrimental to his legacy.


i dont think he’s the goat, but he’s easily in my top 5 (jordan, lebron, kareem, magic, kobe)

Regarding him only having one MVP Kobe stans will argue he should’ve won one that Nash won and another that Duncan won.

He also was the clear Robin to Shaq’s Batman for the first three titles.

My top 5 is

Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain

Kobe is just a more athletic and talented basketball player than Magic and Bird imo. Also was more productive and dominant for a greater amount of time.

12x all defensive has to count for something as well, right?

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You can't always judge greatness by numbers or stats alone.

One thing for sure, Kobe has come as close to the Jordan Gold Standard as i've ever seen in any player's skills, style and motivation. No one else has even come close to Kobe out of anyone I have seen ever since.

It's difficult to understand if you never saw Kobe play - his presence was certainly noticeable.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;15838421]You can't always judge greatness by numbers or stats alone.
[/QUOTE]

That is true, but it's just odd that someone as revered as Kobe was for being an all-time great was _never_ the league leader in any sort of value metric.

I mean, there are really only 2 possibilities:

That value-based metrics seem to work in painting a pretty accurate picture for every GOAT-level player in the history of the NBA (and it seems the more bold there is, the generally better the player is - MJ/Lebron have tons, Magic/Bird less so, but still have some) EXCEPT for Kobe, where the numbers presumably fail to tell the complete story, or

Kobe is simply not a GOAT-level player.

Obviously I'm gonna go with the latter, but apparently there are people ITT who are going with the former because of his crazy work ethic and 'mamba mentality'. I don't agree with that, but at least I can understand it, I guess.

[QUOTE=Noles939913;15838359]Regarding him only having one MVP Kobe stans will argue he should’ve won one that Nash won and another that Duncan won.

He also was the clear Robin to Shaq’s Batman for the first three titles.[/QUOTE]

shaq was dominant for sure...against todd mccullough and undersized kenyon martin, antonio davis/dale davis and an old dikembe, he should be putting those numbers in the finals.

problem with this argument is shaq couldn't close for the lakers in some series due to hack-a-shaq and foul troubles. he was easier to neutralize and pop and adelman took advantage of it. if it wasn't for kobe's brilliance- shaq would be ringless as the main option, similar to penny-shaq duo.


i've always said it became 1A and 1B in their 2nd and 3rd championships. kobe's series against the blazers, sacramento kings and San antonio were impressive. and those were considered as the real NBA finals back then.

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/DYWN8fsHi2M7oaUfGWaNcFOxcBqSf8BgVDVaevC5PKHYFJ1CQcUFALH4JYszMfWRTsLDyhGl[/IMG]

You seem to be asking two different questions:
1. Why is he the GOAT? (don't really see many people claiming this)
2. Is he one of the greatest? (most would agree he is one of the top 10-15 players of all time)

Plenty of people say he is the best scorer of all time. Maybe even the best shooter of all time, although plenty of people will disagree with either of these. Very few say he is THE greatest of all time (i.e., number one). But virtually everyone would agree he is one of the greatest of all time, the only difference is in what list (top 5? top 10? top 15? top 20?).

[QUOTE=JVO;15838321] He won back to back championships after hitting the dreaded 30 year cap with a team of 1 all star and reserves. Did MJ ever do that? [/QUOTE]

Kobe's Lakers went 34-48 in Kobe's prime... now he did miss 16 games so maybe they went 34-32 when he played which is still awful in his prime. 45-37 the next season, 42-40 the year after and then Pau showed up and was the best player on the 65-17 team and 57-25 team that won titles. Kobe was never the best player on a title team.

[QUOTE=whoaitsg33;15838476]shaq was dominant for sure...against todd mccullough and undersized kenyon martin, antonio davis/dale davis and an old dikembe, he should be putting those numbers in the finals.

problem with this argument is shaq couldn't close for the lakers in some series due to hack-a-shaq and foul troubles. he was easier to neutralize and pop and adelman took advantage of it. if it wasn't for kobe's brilliance- shaq would be ringless as the main option, similar to penny-shaq duo.


i've always said it became 1A and 1B in their 2nd and 3rd championships. kobe's series against the blazers, sacramento kings and San antonio were impressive. and those were considered as the real NBA finals back then.

[IMG]https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/DYWN8fsHi2M7oaUfGWaNcFOxcBqSf8BgVDVaevC5PKHYFJ1CQcUFALH4JYszMfWRTsLDyhGl[/IMG][/QUOTE]

This is a bizarre argument you have here. Kobe stan detected.

[QUOTE=aggie4ever;15838483]You seem to be asking two different questions:
1. Why is he the GOAT? (don't really see many people claiming this)
2. Is he one of the greatest? ([B]most would agree he is one of the top 10-15 players of all time[/B])
[/QUOTE]

Well that's the thing - if the actual consensus among most fans is that Kobe is top 10-15, then I didn't even need to create this thread - I'm totally on board with that.

But maybe it's just because I live in SoCal but my impression seems to be that the majority of fans put him in the top 5 all-time, with a significant number putting him at #2. I can't comprehend that.

[QUOTE=whoaitsg33;15838476]shaq was dominant for sure...against todd mccullough and undersized kenyon martin, antonio davis/dale davis and an old dikembe, he should be putting those numbers in the finals.

problem with this argument is shaq couldn't close for the lakers in some series due to hack-a-shaq and foul troubles. he was easier to neutralize and pop and adelman took advantage of it. if it wasn't for kobe's brilliance- shaq would be ringless as the main option, similar to penny-shaq duo.


i've always said it became 1A and 1B in their 2nd and 3rd championships. kobe's series against the blazers, sacramento kings and San antonio were impressive. and those were considered as the real NBA finals back then.
[/QUOTE]

Kobe shot 41.9% against the Kings. He shot 43.9% against the Blazers, He did crush against the Spurs.

[QUOTE=Matt24;15838486]Kobe's Lakers went 34-48 in Kobe's prime... now he did miss 16 games so maybe they went 34-32 when he played which is still awful in his prime. 45-37 the next season, 42-40 the year after and then Pau showed up and was the best player on the 65-17 team and 57-25 team that won titles. Kobe was never the best player on a title team.[/QUOTE]

And don't forget in the 2 playoff appearances he had without a Shaq or Pau by his side, he got booted in the first round both times.

[QUOTE=markinca;15838463]That is true, but it's just odd that someone as revered as Kobe was for being an all-time great was _never_ the league leader in any sort of value metric.

I mean, there are really only 2 possibilities:

That value-based metrics seem to work in painting a pretty accurate picture for every GOAT-level player in the history of the NBA (and it seems the more bold there is, the generally better the player is - MJ/Lebron have tons, Magic/Bird less so, but still have some) EXCEPT for Kobe, where the numbers presumably fail to tell the complete story, or

Kobe is simply not a GOAT-level player.

Obviously I'm gonna go with the latter, but apparently there are people ITT who are going with the former because of his crazy work ethic and 'mamba mentality'. I don't agree with that, but at least I can understand it, I guess.[/QUOTE]

Scoring titles aren’t a value based stat?
4th all time scoring isn’t a value based stat?
What kind of value based metric does his 12 all defensive teams count for? (Ties for second most all defensive teams with KG, only Duncan has more)

Kobe’s greatest amount of team help came early in his career. After Shaq left he played with mostly bums. Other than Gasol (Some people will argue he’s not a HOF’er as well) how many prime HOF’ers came say he played with after the Shaq days?

Bird had Mchale, parish, DJ and Archibald (also Walton but he wasn’t HOF level in 86)
MJ for all his greatness had Rodman for the second 3peat and had Pippen (arguably the greatest second fiddle of all time)
Magic had Kareem, Worthy, Wilkes, McAdoo, Haywood
Kareem had all that help in LA and had the big O in Milwaukee

I’d argue Kobe was asked to do more with less the second half of his career than any of those guys

The start of Kobe's career was overshadowed by the end of Jordan's career greatness.

The middle of Kobe's career was overshadwed by the peak of Shaquille's career dominance.

And the end of Kobe's career was overshadowed by Lebron's quality skills and uberhype.

The reason why Kobe doesn't seem dominant in his generation is the same reason Tim Duncan gets overlooked - they played their entire careers during the peak performance years of other top 20 players in NBA history. Doesn't mean he isn't a top 10 guy, just as Duncan and Dirk should not be discredited for that.

Lebron came along when the four previous draft years were probably amongst the worst in recent NBA history (1999-2002) and for a few years afterwards as well (2004-2006), so Bron was able to shine in an era with pretty poor quality contemporary players, and with very few all time greats playing at the best during his time, (Kobe, Nowitzki and Duncan), and losing to many of them.

If you are questioning Kobe's greatness, you must also question why Lebron is considered an all-time great, for despite all his individual accolades, he could only squeeze out an overwhelming losing record in the finals.

[QUOTE=Matt24;15838486]Kobe's Lakers went 34-48 in Kobe's prime... now he did miss 16 games so maybe they went 34-32 when he played which is still awful in his prime. 45-37 the next season, 42-40 the year after and then Pau showed up and was the best player on the 65-17 team and 57-25 team that won titles. Kobe was never the best player on a title team.[/QUOTE]

Don't think this is a well thought out analysis considering Kobe had this supporting cast over those years...

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[QUOTE=Matt24;15838510]Kobe shot 41.9% against the Kings. He shot 43.9% against the Blazers, He did crush against the Spurs.[/QUOTE]

since when do we judge a player by JUST fg%?

that analysis so outdated lol

kobe averaged 35 4 and 9 in 2001 series against the kings

and 27, 6 and 4 in 2002

[QUOTE=markinca;15838512]And don't forget in the 2 playoff appearances he had without a Shaq or Pau by his side, he got booted in the first round both times.[/QUOTE]

newsflash: superstars needs help


Lol

Because Kobe won 2 championships with players who were not really NBA material. The team was always dead last when Kobe got injured. Muhammad Ali was not the pound for pound best fighter, but he is regarded the greatest as he had to overcome many obstacles like racism and Vietnam, and prevailed. Kobe overcame many obstacles as well, and would have never joined a stacked team to win championships. He was a fighter, thus he is the greatest basketball player of all time, as far as his career. Shaq is the best when it comes to who was the greatest when they were on top of their game.

[QUOTE=Noles939913;15838359]Regarding him only having one MVP Kobe stans will argue he should’ve won one that Nash won and another that Duncan won.

He also was the clear Robin to Shaq’s Batman for the first three titles.[/QUOTE]

So who is the Robin between Magic and Kareem? Who carried who?

[QUOTE=whoaitsg33;15838567]newsflash: superstars needs help


Lol[/QUOTE]

kobe had help. But he ran him out of town because he couldn't figure out a way to get along with the most dominant center of the last 50 years.

Three finals in a row with two championships where second best player was Paul gasol. Just think about that. MJ had Scottie for all six of his, a top 25 all-time player. And Kobe would have won in ‘08 too if Bynum didn’t go down. The guy just willed himself to win. And he didn’t just beat his opponents, he demoralized them. If you have to ask what made kobe one of the greatest of all time, you just don’t know basketball.

[QUOTE=markinca;15838719]kobe had help. But he ran him out of town because he couldn't figure out a way to get along with the most dominant center of the last 50 years.[/QUOTE]

Check your source, Dr. Buss didn't want to pay Shaq the max.

What I don't get is when Kobe gets booted from the first-round of the playoffs, it's 'lol superstars need help, duh'. Then when he does win a chip with Pau, it's 'See, Kobe's so great, he willed that team to a championship.'

Then on the flipside when Lebron takes a team full of no names to the NBA finals but loses, it's 'lol lebron, what a loser.', but when he wins a chip with Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love it's 'Lol, Lebron can't win without other stars.'

C'mon.

[QUOTE=markinca;15838750]What I don't get is when Kobe gets booted from the first-round of the playoffs, it's 'lol superstars need help, duh'. Then when he does win a chip with Pau, it's 'See, Kobe's so great, he willed that team to a championship.'

Then on the flipside when Lebron takes a team full of no names to the NBA finals but loses, it's 'lol lebron, what a loser.', but when he wins a chip with Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love it's 'Lol, Lebron can't win without other stars.'

C'mon.[/QUOTE]

That Lebron's team still had better rosters than the Kobe's team. Also, what about last season's Lebron? He didn't even take the team to the playoffs.

[QUOTE=Kobefan;15838738]Check your source, Dr. Buss didn't want to pay Shaq the max.[/QUOTE]

If you think that's the main reason Shaq got traded, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Tim Duncan is better than Kobe, this thread should be renamed. Come at me.

[QUOTE=Pierce09;15838790]Tim Duncan is better than Kobe, this thread should be renamed. Come at me.[/QUOTE]

I'm on board with this take 100%.

Ok

Discussion over

You are just a Lebron fan boy

#mambaforever

[QUOTE=markinca;15838750]What I don't get is when Kobe gets booted from the first-round of the playoffs, it's 'lol superstars need help, duh'. Then when he does win a chip with Pau, it's 'See, Kobe's so great, he willed that team to a championship.'

Then on the flipside when Lebron takes a team full of no names to the NBA finals but loses, it's 'lol lebron, what a loser.', but when he wins a chip with Wade/Bosh/Kyrie/Love it's 'Lol, Lebron can't win without other stars.'

C'mon.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=markinca;15838719]kobe had help. But he ran him out of town because he couldn't figure out a way to get along with the most dominant center of the last 50 years.[/QUOTE]

sure, shaq himself said it's a contract dispute with late owner dr. buss, but i guess we should listen to you lol

[QUOTE=thekiddfan;15838799]Ok

Discussion over

You are just a Lebron fan boy

#mambaforever[/QUOTE]

I mean, I hate to generalize, but this is a prime example of what Kobe fanboys degenerate these threads into. No discussion, no point/counterpoints. Just crap like this. Laughable.

[QUOTE=whoaitsg33;15838800]sure, shaq himself said it's a contract dispute with late owner dr. buss, but i guess we should listen to you lol[/QUOTE]

Yea, I'm sure that Buss would have just let Shaq go if Kobe had told him he wanted him around. You're looking at the symptoms and not the root cause.

[QUOTE=markinca;15838783]If you think that's the main reason Shaq got traded, I've got a bridge to sell you.[/QUOTE]

[url]https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2020/4/21/21230344/lakers-news-shaq-trade-2004-nba-finals-kobe-bryant-beef-front-office-rumors[/url]

[QUOTE=Pierce09;15838790]Tim Duncan is better than Kobe, this thread should be renamed. Come at me.[/QUOTE]

phenomenal athlete but he's going to be forgotten soon. durant, curry will boot him out of the top 10 talk and that would be a shame.

[QUOTE=markinca;15838809]I mean, I hate to generalize, but this is a prime example of what Kobe fanboys degenerate these threads into. No discussion, no point/counterpoints. Just crap like this. Laughable.[/QUOTE]

to be fair, it's hard to take someone serious if they can't get even their facts straight.

[QUOTE=markinca;15838820]Yea, I'm sure that Buss would have just let Shaq go if Kobe had told him he wanted him around. You're looking at the symptoms and not the root cause.[/QUOTE]

So if Kobe did not beg Dr. Buss to keep Shaq, that means he drove him out, that makes sense.

[QUOTE=Kobefan;15838826][url]https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2020/4/21/21230344/lakers-news-shaq-trade-2004-nba-finals-kobe-bryant-beef-front-office-rumors[/url][/QUOTE]

I wonder who set that trade threat into motion...

[QUOTE=markinca;15838820]Yea, I'm sure that Buss would have just let Shaq go if Kobe had told him he wanted him around. You're looking at the symptoms and not the root cause.[/QUOTE]

it's just business. shaq wanted max terms at the tail end of his career and it was a good call by buss. shaq was useful in 1 season against miami and completely $hit the bed the next few seasons and became a journeyman.

[QUOTE=Kobefan;15838833]So if Kobe did not beg Dr. Buss to keep Shaq, that means he drove him out, that makes sense.[/QUOTE]

Beg? No. But if you think they even think about trading Shaq without asking Kobe what he thought about it, you're out of your mind.

[QUOTE=Pierce09;15838790]Tim Duncan is better than Kobe, this thread should be renamed. Come at me.[/QUOTE]

I would take both Kobe and TD and remove Bill Russell and Wilt. It's only my personal opinion, but the 60s and 70s basketball were weak. Players were underpaid and many had multiple jobs. Aside from the superstars, most of the players in that era are only as good as the G-League players. Also, possessions per game were at all-time high.

[QUOTE=whoaitsg33;15838832]to be fair, it's hard to take someone serious if they can't get even their facts straight.[/QUOTE]

OP is probably just another frustrated Clipper fan.

[QUOTE=markinca;15838844]Beg? No. But if you think they even think about trading Shaq without asking Kobe what he thought about it, you're out of your mind.[/QUOTE]

So, if he says he doesn't care, is that the same as driving him out? The only way he could drive him out is to say either its Kobe or Shaq.

[QUOTE=whoaitsg33;15838829]phenomenal athlete but he's going to be forgotten soon. durant, curry will boot him out of the top 10 talk and that would be a shame.[/QUOTE]

Timmy won titles in 3 decades. Durant had to join Curry to win a title. Curry won a pair and is now a one man show. Timmy is the best PF in history. Are Durant and Curry the best every at their position? Nope. And are they on the path to get there? Probably not.

[QUOTE=Kobefan;15838866]So, if he says he doesn't care, is that the same as driving him out? The only way he could drive him out is to say either its Kobe or Shaq.[/QUOTE]

The 03/04 years were when the feud was at its peak. Pretty sure Kobe had more to say than just that he didn't care. But if you want to think that it was all Buss's decision, that's fine. We'll just have to disagree on that.

[IMG]https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ActiveCoarseHyrax-size_restricted.gif[/IMG]

Only thing missing are the Gayle King quotes. [I]Go blowout, go.[/I]

[QUOTE=Kobefan;15838850]I would take both Kobe and TD and remove Bill Russell and Wilt. It's only my personal opinion, but the 60s and 70s basketball were weak. Players were underpaid and many had multiple jobs. Aside from the superstars, most of the players in that era are only as good as the G-League players. Also, possessions per game were at all-time high.[/QUOTE]

On your side with this one.

[QUOTE=Kobefan;15838850]I would take both Kobe and TD and remove Bill Russell and Wilt. It's only my personal opinion, but the 60s and 70s basketball were weak. Players were underpaid and many had multiple jobs. Aside from the superstars, most of the players in that era are only as good as the G-League players. Also, possessions per game were at all-time high.[/QUOTE]

You can't do that though. The 12th man on pretty much any roster these days would dominate the NBA if he were sent back to the 50s. You can only measure players by how they played against their peers.

[QUOTE=markinca;15838892]You can't do that though. The 12th man on pretty much any roster these days would dominate the NBA if he were sent back to the 50s. You can only measure players by how they played against their peers.[/QUOTE]

Right, Lebron has been over-rated because his peers have been inferior compared to Kobe's peers.

[QUOTE=markinca;15838844]Beg? No. But if you think they even think about trading Shaq without asking Kobe what he thought about it, you're out of your mind.[/QUOTE]

They didn’t want to pay Shaq what he deserved. When he was negotiating his new contract they said they didn’t need to pay him top dollar because Kobe could carry the team without him.


Not sure why this is still a debate, it's known for a decade that Buss did not want to grant O'Neal $25 million a year with declining health/knees, Ultimately, Shaq's tactic against Dr. Buss (Pay me!!! rant on Live TV) was the nail in the coffin.


If Kobe was 33 and Shaq was 24 at that time, Buss would still sign the younger player. This was all about the long term financial gain of the franchise, not this TMZ he said, she said scenario most people have built in their imagination.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;15838894]Right, Lebron has been over-rated because his peers have been inferior compared to Kobe's peers.[/QUOTE]

what are you even talking about?

So to me Kobe is one of the greatest because, well, he has 5 championships and the closest thing to Jordan that I've ever seen. I can't really begin to rank players in order other than I rank MJ first and whatever player I'd put second I'm not sure but Kobe is ahead of Lebron in my mind.

[QUOTE=markinca;15838907]what are you even talking about?[/QUOTE]


That's how Lebron homers always respond. "You can only measure players by how they played against their peers" - your quote.

Look at the draft classes four years (1999-2002) prior to lebron's draft and three years (2004-2006) afterwards - his peers.

Let me know what superstars, contemporaries, Lebron had to compete and play against and compare them to the superstars Kobe had to play against (players drafted from 1992-1995, and 1998-2000), then you will see what I mean.

Try it. Name all the top players that were drafted as Lebron's contemporaries and compare them to Kobe's.

The best picks during Lebron's contemporary years - steve francis, Kenyon Martin, Pau Gasol, Yao Ming, then dwight howard, Chris Paul and Rudy Gay.

The best picks during Kobe's contemporary years - Shaquille o'neal, chris webber, Grant Hill, Kevin Garnett, then Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, and steve francis.

Who played against better peers?

Kobe by a landslide.

Kobe is an all time great while playing against tougher competition.

Lebron can't even win championships despite his cupcake competition.

If you think Lebron is an all time great, Kobe must be as well because he is better than Lebron.

[QUOTE=markinca;15838892]You can't do that though. The 12th man on pretty much any roster these days would dominate the NBA if he were sent back to the 50s. You can only measure players by how they played against their peers.[/QUOTE]

That's my barometer for measuring players, so I'm sticking to it.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;15838952]That's how Lebron homers always respond. "You can only measure players by how they played against their peers" - your quote.

Look at the draft classes four years (1999-2002) prior to lebron's draft and three years (2004-2006) afterwards - his peers.

Let me know what superstars, contemporaries, Lebron had to compete and play against and compare them to the superstars Kobe had to play against (players drafted from 1992-1995, and 1998-2000), then you will see what I mean.

Try it. Name all the top players that were drafted as Lebron's contemporaries and compare them to Kobe's.

The best picks during Lebron's contemporary years - steve francis, Kenyon Martin, Kwame Brown, Yao Ming, then dwight howard, Chris Paul and Rudy Gay.

The top picks during Kobe's contemporary years - Shaquille o'neal, chris webber, Grant Hill, Kevin Garnett, then Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, and steve francis.

Who played against better peers?

Kobe by a landslide.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure why you're looking at draft picks. That's a strange way to gauge the quality of the nba.

It'd be better to look at the players during the years where Lebron was at his peak (somewhere around 2007 - 2013), and if you do, you'd see that those years were just about as rich in talent as any other era in nba history.

[QUOTE=markinca;15839028]I'm not sure why you're looking at draft picks. That's a strange way to gauge the quality of the nba.

It'd be better to look at the players during the years where Lebron was at his peak (somewhere around 2007 - 2013), and if you do, you'd see that those years were just about as rich in talent as any other era in nba history.[/QUOTE]

But you are comparing peak year Lebron playing against rookie Durant, rookie Steph Curry, and aging Duncan and aging Nowitzki.

If you can compare Lebron to players that are of relative same career period as him, he played, along with others near his level of experience, against cream puffs.

Just because you won against Fat Jordan his final year on the Wizards doesn't mean you were better than Jordan, for example.

You need to compare Lebron again other players that were drafted around the same time as him and see how good his peers were to establish a better historical sense. The best player in that seven year contemporary draft period that I described for Lebron, was, in fact, the only guy who could help him win an nba championship as a teammate - Dwayne Wade. A guy from the same draft that won before Lebron ever did, ironically.

The nba was bereft of any talent in that seven year period when Lebron was drafted, a factor that contributed to his complacency.

[QUOTE=8collector34;15838616]Because Kobe won 2 championships with players who were not really NBA material. The team was always dead last when Kobe got injured. Muhammad Ali was not the pound for pound best fighter, but he is regarded the greatest as he had to overcome many obstacles like racism and Vietnam, and prevailed. Kobe overcame many obstacles as well, and would have never joined a stacked team to win championships. He was a fighter, thus he is the greatest basketball player of all time, as far as his career. Shaq is the best when it comes to who was the greatest when they were on top of their game.[/QUOTE]

Ali was also a prick and a pervert, but notice how you don’t hear anything about that? But sure everyone wanted to hold him down and he had to fight the “man” his entire life. You’re basically lapping up the narrative you’re supposed to believe, not only that you’re spreading it to others lol.

Also most boxing historians agree that Ray Robinson is the pound for pound greatest.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;15839071]But you are comparing peak year Lebron playing against rookie Durant, rookie Steph Curry, and aging Duncan and aging Nowitzki.

If you can compare Lebron to players that are of relative same career period as him, he played, along with others near his level of experience, against cream puffs.[/QUOTE]

Durant's rookie year was 07-08. By 2013 he'd already led the league in scoring 3 years straight. During 07-13 he was as in his prime as anyone could be.

Nowitzki was the centerpiece of an NBA title-winning team in 2011.

Duncan was just _barely_ out of his peak by the times the 2000's were coming to an end.

And not to mention 07-13 saw the peaks of Kobe, Derrick Rose, Dwight Howard, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few more big names. Lebron's opponent quality was about as high as you could get.

[QUOTE=markinca;15839092]Durant's rookie year was 07-08. By 2013 he'd already led the league in scoring 3 years straight. He was as in his prime as anyone could be.

Nowitzki was the centerpiece of an NBA title-winning team in 2011.

Duncan was just _barely_ out of his peak by the times the 2000's were coming to an end.

And not to mention 07-13 saw the peaks of Kobe, Derrick Rose, Dwight Howard, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few more big names. Lebron's opponent quality was about as high as you could get.[/QUOTE]

And Kobe had to play against peak Jordan, Barkley, Duncan, Nowitzki, Lebron, Malone, Durant, Real Dream Teamers, etc. etc.

Just Kobe's draft class included Iverson, Ray Allen, etc, etc.

Lebron's rivals were Wade, Carmelo Anthony and Darko......He couldn't even win an nba championship until he joined wade and bosh.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;15839123]And Kobe had to play against peak Jordan, Barkley, Duncan, Nowitzki, Lebron, Malone, Durant, Real Dream Teamers, etc. etc.

Just Kobe's draft class included Iverson, Ray Allen, etc, etc.

Lebron's rivals were Wade, Carmelo Anthony and Darko......He couldn't even win an nba championship until he joined wade and bosh.[/QUOTE]

Wait what Kobe had to play against peak Barkley lol.

[QUOTE=Noles939913;15839151]Wait what Kobe had to play against peak Barkley lol.[/QUOTE]

Ok, chunky Chuck, but you get my point.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;15839154]Ok, chunky Chuck, but you get my point.[/QUOTE]

No I really don’t considering you’re planting falsehoods into your point to prove it.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;15839123]And Kobe had to play against peak Jordan, Barkley, Duncan, Nowitzki, Lebron, Malone, Durant, Real Dream Teamers, etc. etc.

Just Kobe's draft class included Iverson, Ray Allen, etc, etc.

Lebron's rivals were Wade, Carmelo Anthony and Darko......He couldn't even win an nba championship until he joined wade and bosh.[/QUOTE]

I'm really puzzled as to why you think Kobe and Lebron were playing in different times.

Kobe's prime, depending on how you define it, is probably somewhere from the early 2000s to the early 2010s. That prime overlaps Lebron's prime. They're basically contemporaries.

[QUOTE=markinca;15839161]I'm really puzzled as to why you think Kobe and Lebron were playing in different times.

Kobe's prime, depending on how you define it, is probably somewhere from the early 2000s to the early 2010s. That prime overlaps Lebron's prime. They're basically contemporaries.[/QUOTE]

I'm simply referring to how each player compares to other players that are at a similar stage of their career, cause you mentioned you can only compare players by how they played against their peers. Peers meaning players that are at a similar career stage as who you are talking about.

Kobe was drafted seven years earlier than Lebron, Kobe caught the peak performances of certain players that had retired by the time Lebron was drafted, and my argument is that Kobe played against tougher vets than Lebron had to play against at a similar stage in their careers.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;15839191]I'm simply referring to how each player compares to other players that are at a similar stage of their career, cause you mentioned you can only compare players by how they played against their peers. Peers meaning players that are at a similar career stage as who you are talking about.

Kobe was drafted seven years earlier than Lebron, Kobe caught the peak performances of certain players that had retired by the time Lebron was drafted, and my argument is that Kobe played against tougher vets than Lebron had to play against at a similar stage in their careers.[/QUOTE]

You know, since lebron entered the league he played against a prime iverson, mcgrady " his rc year", kobe, wade, durant, carmelo, westbrook, curry and harden......

[QUOTE=Brye86;15839246]You know, since lebron entered the league he played against a prime iverson, mcgrady " his rc year", kobe, wade, durant, carmelo, westbrook, curry and harden......[/QUOTE]

But regarding Lebron's contemporaries (draft class mates, and the four drafts prior and three drafts afterwards), he played against no one significant compared to who Kobe had to play against.

You guys still don't understand that you need to compare how a player played against the players that are of similar career stage as that player, and Kobe had to play tougher players who were at his similar career stage than Lebron. There is no debating that.

I'll make it simple for you guys to understand. Let's use Tim Duncan. When Kobe was a seventh year player, he had to play against a sixth year Duncan.

When Lebron was a seventh year player, he had to play again a sixth year Dwight Howard.

Duncan was and is better than Howard. Get it?

they both pretty much played in a tough era. kobe faced some tough teams out west trailblazers, kings, spurs and played reggie millers pacers, yao/tmac rockets, melo in denver when he was still useful, prime dwight howard.


but i'll give this one to lebron. on his 14-17th season, he had to play a ridiculously stack golden state warriors, giannis and kawhi. lebron's road to a title was definitely much more difficult.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;15839295]

You guys still don't understand that you need to compare how a player played against the players that are of similar career stage as that player, and Kobe had to play tougher players who were at his similar career stage than Lebron. [B]There is no debating that.[/B][/QUOTE]

Um, yes there most certainly is.

[QUOTE=hermanotarjeta;15839295]But regarding Lebron's contemporaries (draft class mates, and the four drafts prior and three drafts afterwards), he played against no one significant compared to who Kobe had to play against.

You guys still don't understand that you need to compare how a player played against the players that are of similar career stage as that player, and Kobe had to play tougher players who were at his similar career stage than Lebron. There is no debating that.

I'll make it simple for you guys to understand. Let's use Tim Duncan. When Kobe was a seventh year player, he had to play against a sixth year Duncan.

When Lebron was a seventh year player, he had to play again a sixth year Dwight Howard.

Duncan was and is better than Howard. Get it?[/QUOTE]

That's understandable but a very very very weird and misconstrued way to look at things. I named all the players that Lebron had the chance to play with in their primes. Listen, I think Kobe is better than Lebron tbh and Lebron for the majority of career has played in a "softer" league but there's no denying that he's also a great player.

[QUOTE=markinca;15839327]Um, yes there most certainly is.[/QUOTE]

Why don't you use some concrete examples? I've already provided plenty of evidence.

[QUOTE=Brye86;15839331]That's understandable but a very very very weird and misconstrued way to look at things. I named all the players that Lebron had the chance to play with in their primes. Listen, I think Kobe is better than Lebron tbh and Lebron for the majority of career has played in a "softer" league but there's no denying that he's also a great player.[/QUOTE]

I agree Lebron is great, in fact he and Shaq are the most naturally gifted players in the history of the NBA. But Kobe still ranks above them imo because Kobe had the desire to win like Jordan, whereas Lebron and Shaq both fall short of the players they could of been due to a lack of focus and heart.