[QUOTE=Orangejello727;17897746]None of that. Do you know how many sets have been produced with "Scope", "refractor" or any other recycled technology used on 90s inserts and parallels? There have been so many of them. This isnt the first time Panini is doing this with cards. Ever wonder why certain people chose this specific set to pump suddenly? Because it might have been the only recent product to come out and they had the chance of picking up product of it since it didnt grab attention and insta sell out.

There is absolutely no similarities between this set and any of the late 90s PMGs. The photos are not even comparable, the backgrounds arent comparable and the number of variations are not comparable. Hell the insertion ratios to common base are not even close. The only comparison this guy made was the use of "Scope" and colors.

His first comparison is the 1997 PMG Red to flux titan purple. HOw similar they are? How so? One is red, the other is purple??

He stated the the production and parallel variations were similar. How so? 97 PMG had a base, red and a green. Flux has Silver Purple Scope FOTL – /38, Purple – /25, Gold Scope FOTL – /18, Black Scope FOTL – /8, Gold – /5, Black – 1/1. Then on top of that has 3 variations of certain cards.

For the 1998 PMG, he compares the top riveted edge to the left border of the flux being similar? WTF? There is no comparison in design. Its like me saying "look they printed in the players name in at the bottom of the card".. it similar to how they did it in another year? :doh::doh:

I could keep going on and on. There is no real comparison. All the examples are forced similarities to assume a common theme. Go look at the first page and tell me you see a REAL similarity between the the MJ pmg red and a purple and yellow refractor.[/QUOTE]


You’re kind of validating the salty and angry accusation… [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=gemmintpop1;17897761]You’re kind of validating the salty and angry accusation… [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

So you agree there was no comparison in your document? It was just a marketing ploy. Thanks for coming out.

"look one is red... the other is purple". the similarities are common... the use of a color makes them almost the same!! :)!:)!:)!:)!

Op is far from a pumper.. Have had numerous talks with him about collecting and the hobby, even before this thread.

[QUOTE=Orangejello727;17897890]So you agree there was no comparison in your document? It was just a marketing ploy. Thanks for coming out.

"look one is red... the other is purple". the similarities are common... the use of a color makes them almost the same!! :)!:)!:)!:)![/QUOTE]

Jello there's no marketing ploy. The fact you read the paper and are pointing out valid arguments against the PMG comparison is what I wanted. It's the reason I posted it on BO.

As someone who is opposed to the comparison:

What do you think about the "Rookie" down the right side? How come they included that for Basketball but none of the other Titans? I believe it's the only card Panini has ever made with that type of card design. Isn't the rookie emblem enough?

Why do you think they chose to get rid of all the other Titan parallel finishes (cracked ice, velocity, checkerboard, etc.) and only use Kaleidoscope/Scope? They hadn't used Kaleidoscope/Scope for any of the other previous Titans.

[QUOTE=Orangejello727;17897746]None of that. Do you know how many sets have been produced with "Scope", "refractor" or any other recycled technology used on 90s inserts and parallels? There have been so many of them. This isnt the first time Panini is doing this with cards. Ever wonder why certain people chose this specific set to pump suddenly? Because it might have been the only recent product to come out and they had the chance of picking up product of it since it didnt grab attention and insta sell out.

There is absolutely no similarities between this set and any of the late 90s PMGs. The photos are not even comparable, the backgrounds arent comparable and the number of variations are not comparable. Hell the insertion ratios to common base are not even close. The only comparison this guy made was the use of "Scope" and colors.

His first comparison is the 1997 PMG Red to flux titan purple. HOw similar they are? How so? One is red, the other is purple??

He stated the the production and parallel variations were similar. How so? 97 PMG had a base, red and a green. Flux has Silver Purple Scope FOTL – /38, Purple – /25, Gold Scope FOTL – /18, Black Scope FOTL – /8, Gold – /5, Black – 1/1. Then on top of that has 3 variations of certain cards.

For the 1998 PMG, he compares the top riveted edge to the left border of the flux being similar? WTF? There is no comparison in design. Its like me saying "look they printed in the players name in at the bottom of the card".. it similar to how they did it in another year? :doh::doh:

I could keep going on and on. There is no real comparison. All the examples are forced similarities to assume a common theme. Go look at the first page and tell me you see a REAL similarity between the the MJ pmg red and a purple and yellow refractor.[/QUOTE]

Based on your numbers on the Titans that are numbered there are less then the PMG's.

[QUOTE=gemmintpop1;17898003]Jello there's no marketing ploy. The fact you read the paper and are pointing out valid arguments against the PMG comparison is what I wanted. It's the reason I posted it on BO.

As someone who is opposed to the comparison:

What do you think about the "Rookie" down the right side? How come they included that for Basketball but none of the other Titans? I believe it's the only card Panini has ever made with that type of card design. Isn't the rookie emblem enough?

Why do you think they chose to get rid of all the other Titan parallel finishes (cracked ice, velocity, checkerboard, etc.) and only use Kaleidoscope/Scope? They hadn't used Kaleidoscope/Scope for any of the other previous Titans.[/QUOTE]

Most new card designs are all copycats of older designs. Everything is recycled today for 2 major reasons. First being anything popular gets replicated to death hoping to resurrect the same type of demand and success. Second is time. Its easier, cheaper and most importantly faster to copy something that has been done in the past.

When panini creates a design of a card style for any sport, it changes a few attributes to make it a bit different. They did it with parallel variations, color and subtle differences between sports of the same brand. The vertical rookie logo has been used before. 2019 Illusions basketball. Its not new.

[IMG]https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51kY-E1iX4L._SY780_.jpg[/IMG]


Think of the Panini creative team as a photo shop suite with a bunch of templates. Click and drag a template of a past product and replace it for font, background, effect and texture. Repeat and recycle. Personally I think its a bunch of mumbo jumbo when it comes to design. As if someone sits there and hits the "quick pick" button and it random chooses a combo of designs and TADA!!! outcomes a new card design for the next product. Same goes for the name of these products.


There is no true comparison. Give me a new product with the same type of story telling, action picture and same ratio of insertion with limited parallels and maybe we can have something similar. How about some foil etching to start? That would have been a good start to copycatting a 97 set favourite. What about set size? Chasing any card from a 80 card set is easy. Try chasing a parallel of a card from a 300 card set with other inserts and a ton of production? The game and demand change dramatically. Nothing comparable.

[QUOTE=Orangejello727;17898176]Most new card designs are all copycats of older designs. Everything is recycled today for 2 major reasons. First being anything popular gets replicated to death hoping to resurrect the same type of demand and success. Second is time. Its easier, cheaper and most importantly faster to copy something that has been done in the past.

When panini creates a design of a card style for any sport, it changes a few attributes to make it a bit different. They did it with parallel variations, color and subtle differences between sports of the same brand. The vertical rookie logo has been used before. 2019 Illusions basketball. Its not new.

[IMG]https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51kY-E1iX4L._SY780_.jpg[/IMG]


Think of the Panini creative team as a photo shop suite with a bunch of templates. Click and drag a template of a past product and replace it for font, background, effect and texture. Repeat and recycle. Personally I think its a bunch of mumbo jumbo when it comes to design. As if someone sits there and hits the "quick pick" button and it random chooses a combo of designs and TADA!!! outcomes a new card design for the next product. Same goes for the name of these products.


There is no true comparison. Give me a new product with the same type of story telling, action picture and same ratio of insertion with limited parallels and maybe we can have something similar. How about some foil etching to start? That would have been a good start to copycatting a 97 set favourite. What about set size? Chasing any card from a 80 card set is easy. Try chasing a parallel of a card from a 300 card set with other inserts and a ton of production? The game and demand change dramatically. Nothing comparable.[/QUOTE]

What do you think about the "Rookie" down the right side? [B]Not answered[/B]

How come they included that for Basketball but none of the other Titans? [B]Not answered[/B]

I believe it's the only card Panini has ever made with that type of card design. Isn't the rookie emblem enough? [B]Paraphrasing... it's been done before. The Illusions rookie down the left side reading bottom to top is similar.[/B]

Why do you think they chose to get rid of all the other Titan parallel finishes (cracked ice, velocity, checkerboard, etc.) and only use Kaleidoscope/Scope? They hadn't used Kaleidoscope/Scope for any of the other previous Titans. [B]Not answered.
[/B]

[QUOTE=Orangejello727;17898176]Most new card designs are all copycats of older designs. Everything is recycled today for 2 major reasons. First being anything popular gets replicated to death hoping to resurrect the same type of demand and success. Second is time. Its easier, cheaper and most importantly faster to copy something that has been done in the past.

When panini creates a design of a card style for any sport, it changes a few attributes to make it a bit different. They did it with parallel variations, color and subtle differences between sports of the same brand. The vertical rookie logo has been used before. 2019 Illusions basketball. Its not new.

[IMG]https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51kY-E1iX4L._SY780_.jpg[/IMG]


Think of the Panini creative team as a photo shop suite with a bunch of templates. Click and drag a template of a past product and replace it for font, background, effect and texture. Repeat and recycle. Personally I think its a bunch of mumbo jumbo when it comes to design. As if someone sits there and hits the "quick pick" button and it random chooses a combo of designs and TADA!!! outcomes a new card design for the next product. Same goes for the name of these products.


There is no true comparison. Give me a new product with the same type of story telling, action picture and same ratio of insertion with limited parallels and maybe we can have something similar. How about some foil etching to start? That would have been a good start to copycatting a 97 set favourite. What about set size? Chasing any card from a 80 card set is easy. Try chasing a parallel of a card from a 300 card set with other inserts and a ton of production? The game and demand change dramatically. Nothing comparable.[/QUOTE]

While I agree the PMG cannot ever be replicated, I was simply pointing out similarities.

While I also agree that Panini has done a terrible job of coming up with original design over the years, Flux seems to be a breath of fresh air.

There are several new parallels in the 250 card base set i.e. Moonlight, Sunrise, Supernova, Solar Eclipse, and Lunar Eclipse.

I'm also fairly certain the insert names and artwork/designs are all original and not recycled. ---d lux, deja vu, flow motion, fluid, flux appeal, freshman year, full capacity, incoming, rooking influx, flux titan, troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, thermosphere, exosphere.

[QUOTE=babyfaceposey;17898169]Based on your numbers on the Titans that are numbered there are less then the PMG's.[/QUOTE]

The collectibility question specific to Titans vs. PMGs, assuming we can agree that both designs are valid and in the top echelon of their year/era, is whether the serial numbered versions are sufficiently differentiated from (and linked to) the regular version in both design and the overarching set.

With PMGs, they are parallels: basically different colored printings (90 red and 10 green) of the 125-card base set, minus checklists. It's very simple math.

With Titans, it is an insert set. Basically 20 veterans, 10 Legends and 70 rookies - completely different roster from the 250 base card set. With all the top rookie repeats, there is some cannibalization of players.... (ex. 285 serial numbered versions of Lamelo, vs. 190 of Pritchard and 95 of Nesmith). In addition, you have silvers and base, the print run of which is probably still fluid, based on whether they decide to do all kinds of retail and T-Mall iterations. But a box hit or better.

One other point: 64 of 95 total serial numbers of any Titan card will be Scope FOTL. Which means that the serial numbered Purple/25, Gold/5, and Black/1, totaling 31, are rarer. I think they look just fine. Does anyone know if these are Hobby, non-FOTL exclusive?

I dunno what to conclude actually... Titans are pretty different from PMG, but nice workaround to avoid rainbow burnout and nice design. I don't think we should really separate Scope from the other serial numbered Titan versions, unless you really like that (well established) design element.

To the individual that stated it's the only product that was available, that's just not true. Mosaic was up there a while and Optic is STILL available on Panini's website.

For me, I'm collecting the Tim Duncan Titans Legends card. While not hopeful, would be incredible if I can ever secure the Hobby 1/1.

I'm a fan of the encases Titans, more so of the 10 card Legends set.

Nice write up OP, I enjoyed it and appreciate the effort.

-Chris

whens the fast break titans dropping

[QUOTE=gemmintpop1;17898209]What do you think about the "Rookie" down the right side? [B]Not answered[/B]

How come they included that for Basketball but none of the other Titans? [B]Not answered[/B]

I believe it's the only card Panini has ever made with that type of card design. Isn't the rookie emblem enough? [B]Paraphrasing... it's been done before. The Illusions rookie down the left side reading bottom to top is similar.[/B]

Why do you think they chose to get rid of all the other Titan parallel finishes (cracked ice, velocity, checkerboard, etc.) and only use Kaleidoscope/Scope? They hadn't used Kaleidoscope/Scope for any of the other previous Titans. [B]Not answered.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Rookie down the right side? Now you're really pushing it. So its down the left!! How come they didnt follow the original and put the "metal" name in the bottom right but instead put the flux at the top left? Now you're changing the goal post to make it fit the narrative. I called you out on this earlier and now you're doing it again.

I dont know why they included for basketball and none of the other sports. Maybe because every sport has a different creative design team? Maybe that person didnt like it but the other person did? Who knows. Thats like asking why does prizm football have snakeskin or camo pattern but basketball doesnt? I have no clue as to what reasons they use or dont use certain patterns or templates in creating for different sports?

Why dont you ask someone at panini? Why they choose to include and not include certain variations and type font on some sports and not others. Im willing to bet its because every sport probably has its own creative team. Otherwise everything would all look the same and we wouldnt have different sport prodcuts, just a universal Prizm multi sport product to buy. duh!

[QUOTE=gemmintpop1;17898302]While I agree the PMG cannot ever be replicated, I was simply pointing out similarities.

While I also agree that Panini has done a terrible job of coming up with original design over the years, Flux seems to be a breath of fresh air.

There are several new parallels in the 250 card base set i.e. Moonlight, Sunrise, Supernova, [B][COLOR="Red"]Solar Eclipse, and Lunar Eclipse.
[/COLOR][/B]
I'm also fairly certain the insert names and artwork/designs are all original and not recycled. ---d lux, deja vu, flow motion, fluid, flux appeal, freshman year, full capacity, incoming, rooking influx, flux titan, [COLOR="red"][B]troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, thermosphere, exosphere.[/B][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

hahah!! This reminds of when I ask my 2 yr old nephew to rip off the names of the month and he starts with January, Feburary, March, April May, Jay (Jun), July, Augly (Aug), September, Octember (Oct), November, December. Just rips off the next month as if it sounds like the previous month. Kindergarten exercise in make subset names. Pure joke.

[QUOTE=Orangejello727;17898384]hahah!! This reminds of when I ask my 2 yr old nephew to rip off the names of the month and he starts with January, Feburary, March, April May, Jay (Jun), July, Augly (Aug), September, Octember (Oct), November, December. Just rips off the next month as if it sounds like the previous month. Kindergarten exercise in make subset names. Pure joke.[/QUOTE]

I like you Jello. You stick to your guns :cool:

I agree with OJ that they aren't really comparable, but I also don't think the OP was trying to pump.

[QUOTE=Nomad;17897188]. And I have not even seen mention of my fav insert yet... it's not Titan and it's not Exosphere or Flux Appeal.[/QUOTE]

Ssshhh....great Scott!

[QUOTE=Orangejello727;17898384]hahah!! This reminds of when I ask my 2 yr old nephew to rip off the names of the month and he starts with January, Feburary, March, April May, Jay (Jun), July, Augly (Aug), September, Octember (Oct), November, December. Just rips off the next month as if it sounds like the previous month. Kindergarten exercise in make subset names. Pure joke.[/QUOTE]

Just using the layers of the atmosphere, perhaps an unusual thing to do for a basketball card insert, but not really kindergarten.

I havent read most of this thread, and I dont know much about basketball, but from skimming Im in agreement with you that there isnt much of a comparison between the legendary original era PMGs and these. They arent even in the same stratosphere (sorry, had to). Still it was fun to read the OP paper, the content is interesting and I learned stuff. Glad the OP posted it, it's possible to enjoy something I dont completely agree with.

[QUOTE=DynaEtch;17899040]it's possible to enjoy something I dont completely agree with.[/QUOTE]

Kryptonite to know-it-alls

[QUOTE=Orangejello727;17897746]
There is absolutely no similarities between this set and any of the late 90s PMGs. [/QUOTE]

So, you seem upset and I question whether I should get in conversation with you, but I feel compelled to say this:

From one perspective, there are only 3 possibilities for how Flux Titan came to be:

1. Panini chose its outer space theme for Flux Titan with pure creativity having no knowledge of previous card sets that also used a space them.

2. Panini chose its outer space theme for Flux Titan specifically inspired by other previous space-themed sets, but with no inspiration from Metal Universe's Precious Metal Gems.

3. Panini chose its outer space theme for Flux Titan and was at least partially inspired by Metal Universe's Precious Metal Gems.

I think we can all agree that (1) is a non-starter, so the question is really between (2) and (3). With what you said here, that would imply you think the answer is (2)...but I'm skeptical you believe that.

I would tend to look at something produced in 2021 and specifically look for what came before - both base on similarity and legacy - to see what caused the inspiration. And it's hard not to think Panini was looking to see what they could capture from the magic of the PMGs when making Titan. If there's some other set in the past that seems considerably more likely to be a major inspiration for Titan, I'd be interested to hear what that would be, because it would really surprise me.

When I see what you said here, along with how vehement you are about it, to me what that says is that you're focused on whether Titan deserves to be seen as special as the PMGs coming after endless times in the past encountering people talking about some forgettable thing as "the next PMG". You're thus extremely skeptical that any of these new things are going to have an effect on the hobby anything like the PMGs, and wisely so.

But just coming at it from a design perspective, yeah, I see influence and so I certainly see similarity.

[QUOTE=gemmintpop1;17898302]While I agree the PMG cannot ever be replicated, I was simply pointing out similarities.

While I also agree that Panini has done a terrible job of coming up with original design over the years, Flux seems to be a breath of fresh air.

There are several new parallels in the 250 card base set i.e. Moonlight, Sunrise, Supernova, Solar Eclipse, and Lunar Eclipse.

I'm also fairly certain the insert names and artwork/designs are all original and not recycled. ---d lux, deja vu, flow motion, fluid, flux appeal, freshman year, full capacity, incoming, rooking influx, flux titan, troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, thermosphere, exosphere.[/QUOTE]

I think they've done a great job working on a coherent theme, and I think it's weird that people aren't just focusing on that more.

I have to say, I had no notion of Flux being as astronomically-focused brand when it was in Chronicles. Given the name, I couldn't help but think of physics from the jump, but nothing about the earlier designs I saw really reinforced that in the images I saw online. With the brand now clearly telegraphing the space focus, it makes me ask:

Is there something I missed - possibly that only pops in person - that made Flux base feel space-y before?

[QUOTE=cking;17897149]I agree, it was a good piece the OP put together.

But after everything we have seen over the last two years you should be able to understand why people may see it the way I do.

Others may not. And thats fine.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your post. I know what it's like to get so sick of seeing something that it polarizes me against new things that seem likely to be "another one of those".

[QUOTE=DynaEtch;17899040]Just using the layers of the atmosphere, perhaps an unusual thing to do for a basketball card insert, but not really kindergarten.

I havent read most of this thread, and I dont know much about basketball, but from skimming Im in agreement with you that there isnt much of a comparison between the legendary original era PMGs and these. They arent even in the same stratosphere (sorry, had to). Still it was fun to read the OP paper, the content is interesting and I learned stuff. Glad the OP posted it, it's possible to enjoy something I dont completely agree with.[/QUOTE]

I never said you cant enjoy it. Im wondering why people are telling me I cannot disgree with it? Because I choose not to agree that the two set.s are not comparable, somehow Im salty and an emery of the state that committed treason?

[QUOTE=Tallboy;17899058]So, you seem upset and I question whether I should get in conversation with you, but I feel compelled to say this:

From one perspective, there are only 3 possibilities for how Flux Titan came to be:

1. Panini chose its outer space theme for Flux Titan with pure creativity having no knowledge of previous card sets that also used a space them.

2. Panini chose its outer space theme for Flux Titan specifically inspired by other previous space-themed sets, but with no inspiration from Metal Universe's Precious Metal Gems.

3. Panini chose its outer space theme for Flux Titan and was at least partially inspired by Metal Universe's Precious Metal Gems.

I think we can all agree that (1) is a non-starter, so the question is really between (2) and (3). With what you said here, that would imply you think the answer is (2)...but I'm skeptical you believe that.

I would tend to look at something produced in 2021 and specifically look for what came before - both base on similarity and legacy - to see what caused the inspiration. And it's hard not to think Panini was looking to see what they could capture from the magic of the PMGs when making Titan. If there's some other set in the past that seems considerably more likely to be a major inspiration for Titan, I'd be interested to hear what that would be, because it would really surprise me.

When I see what you said here, along with how vehement you are about it, to me what that says is that you're focused on whether Titan deserves to be seen as special as the PMGs coming after endless times in the past encountering people talking about some forgettable thing as "the next PMG". You're thus extremely skeptical that any of these new things are going to have an effect on the hobby anything like the PMGs, and wisely so.

But just coming at it from a design perspective, yeah, I see influence and so I certainly see similarity.[/QUOTE]

I dont know why you would say I am upset? Because I dont agree with notation of common theme automatically make me upset? We cant disagree? Its not allowed and if I do I must be upset? Is that how it really works?


I think 1997 Metal Universe was more a "Metal" theme more so than an outer space theme. Cards like Shaq having windmills and Garnett with fish in the background gives more of an indication that the theme was "metallic" more so than outer space. There are various cards in the set that seem 'Planetary'. Unlike Flux where every card is the same background.

1997 Metal universe used a base card with a red and green parallel. Thats it. In flux they used at least 6 parallels. Common or uncommon to pay homage to a simple set like 1997? I mean Prizm used 20+ parallels does that make it similar to 97 metal universe?

1997 Metal PMG used a single color foil etch. In Flux they use a two tone refractor. No foil at all. No etching at all. The technology on the cards are even close to being the same.

I dont care of Titan deserves to be as special as PMG. You have it all wrong. Im more in the realm of "Get your own style" more than comparing the two. Ive also noted previously that I think Panini creates it's design and set names using a random generators. Throw a bunch of styles into a generator and it randomly spits out a theme, color and random name and BAM...you got yourself a new product! Its up the rest of you to make 10 page documents to try really hard to compare it to something you've seen in the past that was very successful and hopely it sticks!! Thats what has happen here

Flux Titan may or may not become something awesome BUT there are a lot of people here who will definitely miss the next big thing because they are close minded.

I personally think these cards are pretty cool.

For the record, I thought 2014 totally certified mirror parallels would be the next PMG type. It never panned out. That being said, I do like these as well. Have a different feel to them in terms of eye appeal/scarcity/affordability. Probably won’t after they ruin them 2 years later. I paid no attention to the silvers. Now looking at it, there are only 3 completed/active of a certain player.