Re: Detectives shorting



Well, you can sell at the artificially inflated prices before it bursts. I'm listing like an insane person this morning.

[QUOTE=monkeymcgee;14615456]Re: Detectives shorting



Well, you can sell at the artificially inflated prices before it bursts. I'm listing like an insane person this morning.[/QUOTE]

link?

[QUOTE=JoeAdam;14615144]I doubt PSA is in on it. I think the trimmers are just doing it with so much skill that it is impossible for even the “experts” to tell the difference.[/QUOTE]
If anyone is "in on it" it's BGS. You have at least three known "scum of the earth" in the Dallas area. One of them admitting being in beckett's office everyday. Why would someone need to be in their office everyday unless there was some nefarious activities going on. Waiting for the guys holding the BGS slabs to come at me.

[QUOTE=monkeymcgee;14615456]Re: Detectives shorting



Well, you can sell at the artificially inflated prices before it bursts. I'm listing like an insane person this morning.[/QUOTE]


Not a bad idea. One of my projects this summer will to go through PSA Registry sets of modern cards and find the trim jobs and then notify the owners. I have faith this whole industry will get better, but the pain comes before the gain.

[QUOTE=Halebop;14615233]For sentimental reasons I recently decided to grade an off center 1984 Donruss Darryl Strawberry rookie that I pulled out of a pack many years ago. PSA refused to grade it saying it did not meet the minimum size requirement. Of course the card may have been a smaller size based on inconsistencies in production back in the day, but how can they pay close attention to a $5 card and miss cards that are $1,000 plus? [B]I want to believe that a few people at PSA are in on this scam, otherwise I have to believe the company as a whole is nearly worthless to the hobby[/B][/QUOTE]

I've always wondered if the grading companies do things like favor larger $ customers. This suspicion amongst other issues has made me leery of them but they are the only game in town to get cards graded and I like certain graded holders over others.

This latest trimming fiasco is the final nail though. As a buyer, when I see fraud and nothing on the grading companies' part doing anything to address it, I have to assume it will blow up eventually and crater their market. It would be crazy to see PSA/BGS 9s eventually have higher value than gem copies.

[QUOTE=chezball;14615474]If anyone is "in on it" it's BGS. You have at least three known "scum of the earth" in the Dallas area. One of them admitting being in beckett's office everyday. Why would someone need to be in their office everyday unless there was some nefarious activities going on. Waiting for the guys holding the BGS slabs to come at me.[/QUOTE]

Lest we forget:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/Vj7y86lh.png[/img]

[QUOTE=Mountaineer;14615328]Do you not think that PWCC should do their due diligence and slow down their influx on cards and do proper investigations instead of it being a work-line condition where everything is processed and then you get these posted as soon as possible.

I think that is what the issue is. PWCC should take the time instead of rushing to post all these cards. Maybe hire a 3rd party member to check for alterations based on worthpoint and other previous selling. But we both know why nothing like that will ever happen. It cuts into their bottom line of money.[/QUOTE]

I don’t. The issue is with the grading companies. For cards already graded, a consigner should be able to tell if the slab is real and not tampered with.

And I’m not sticking up for PWCC. This whole debacle has disqualified them from their HE and PQ designation BS.

[QUOTE=SaveMeTheGum;14615491]Lest we forget:

[img]https://i.imgur.com/Vj7y86lh.png[/img][/QUOTE]

and the guy from SSI, the three Scumeteers

[QUOTE=chezball;14615501]and the guy from SSI, the three Scumeteers[/QUOTE]

Three guys from SSI actually. And the Dallas Card Show postcard shiller.

[QUOTE=3124508 on COMC;14615533]Three guys from SSI actually. And the Dallas Card Show postcard shiller.[/QUOTE]

The Dallas Trimmers Club as I like to call them.

To be fair, if PSA is aware of this and is taking a proactive approach in combating it, they're not going to publicly announce that and outline exactly what they are doing. So it's not entirely fair for us to just assume that PSA is doing nothing about this.

Arthur

[QUOTE=chezball;14615501]and the guy from SSI, the three Scumeteers[/QUOTE]

Well sheeet, we have another sillysheeet on the list...

[QUOTE=JoeAdam;14615144]I doubt PSA is in on it. I think the trimmers are just doing it with so much skill that it is impossible for even the “experts” to tell the difference.[/QUOTE]

Edit:

....it's impossible for even the "experts" to tell the difference given the speed at which they are required to work (45-60 seconds per card).

PSA could easily solve this problem by slowing down the grading process (at least for high value cards) and/or adding another layer of review for cards worth over $100 which initially grade a "10".

Obviously the answer is for us, whether a dealer or collector is to stop putting so much weight in someone else’s opinion of what we buy, sell and collect. You can talk circles around it all you want but you can’t deny this is the answer. When people stop paying huge premiums for modern 10s the motivation to alter will subside, no?


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[QUOTE=LVDan;14615617]Obviously the answer is for us, whether a dealer or collector is to stop putting so much weight in someone else’s opinion of what we buy, sell and collect. You can talk circles around it all you want but you can’t deny this is the answer. When people stop paying huge premiums for modern 10s the motivation to alter will subside, no?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]


Correct!!

[QUOTE=HarryLime;14615580]To be fair, if PSA is aware of this and is taking a proactive approach in combating it, they're not going to publicly announce that and outline exactly what they are doing. So it's not entirely fair for us to just assume that PSA is doing nothing about this.

Arthur[/QUOTE]

I would disagree. One of the biggest problems that many have with these companies is their lack of transparency. While I agree they don't need to announce the details of all their processes, I do feel they need to acknowledge the issue, and let the public know they really do have new methods to spot these trimmed cards. Whether we believe them is another issue.

[QUOTE=LVDan;14615617]Obviously the answer is for us, whether a dealer or collector is to stop putting so much weight in someone else’s opinion of what we buy, sell and collect. You can talk circles around it all you want but you can’t deny this is the answer. When people stop paying huge premiums for modern 10s the motivation to alter will subside, no?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

This is true, but if TPG were to go away, it would kill the market for cards above $100. I really think the correct answer in all this is not that grading should go away but that the process needs to improve. The issue with this though is that a better process will involve more time and people and consequently be more expensive. I could link the 16 bajillion posts on BO about people whining how long and how expensive grading is so you can see the inherent problem with this. However, I think there is no other option than improving the process and increasing the cost and people are just going to have to adjust.

$22.5k of Trimmed Harper 2012 Topps Heritage High Autos Sold via PWCC and Probstein
 

[QUOTE=dmanrico;14615797]This is true, but if TPG were to go away, it would kill the market for cards above $100. I really think the correct answer in all this is not that grading should go away but that the process needs to improve. The issue with this though is that a better process will involve more time and people and consequently be more expensive. I could link the 16 bajillion posts on BO about people whining how long and how expensive grading is so you can see the inherent problem with this. However, I think there is no other option than improving the process and increasing the cost and people are just going to have to adjust.[/QUOTE]



Or we just adjust to a new normal where a $100 card now trades for $40 without it being anointed as “gem”.
This is very easy for someone like me who owns maybe 50 graded cards to declare as opposed to someone who has built a career and decent living off of them. Not an easy answer by any means.


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[QUOTE=LVDan;14615809]Or we just adjust to a new normal where a $100 card now trades for $40 without it being anointed as “gem”.


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If we want the card market to all be under $100, then yes this would work.

$22.5k of Trimmed Harper 2012 Topps Heritage High Autos Sold via PWCC and Probstein
 

[QUOTE=dmanrico;14615812]If we want the card market to all be under $100, then yes this would work.[/QUOTE]



Over time if enough people decided they weren’t paying the premium prices on raw would slowly increase without a doubt.


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[QUOTE=LVDan;14615819]Over time if enough people decided they weren’t paying the premium prices on raw would increase without a doubt.


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There’s no way. Whether we like it or not TPG gives liquidity to cards and liquidity creates price increases. The Acuna US 250 is the perfect case in point. Raws are increasing in price because PSA 10s are increasing. Without that, we’re left with thousands of the exact same card on the market.

[QUOTE=mfw13;14615595]Edit:



....it's impossible for even the "experts" to tell the difference given the speed at which they are required to work (45-60 seconds per card).



PSA could easily solve this problem by slowing down the grading process (at least for high value cards) and/or adding another layer of review for cards worth over $100 which initially grade a "10".[/QUOTE]



As we discussed in a separate thread... speed isn’t the issue, it’s the use of humans... as we outlined there is a pretty straight forward tech solution to this

That also would speed grading, make it more accurate/ consistent, identify fraud, and build provenance.


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[QUOTE=pewe;14615829]As we discussed in a separate thread... speed isn’t the issue, it’s the use of humans... as we outlined there is a pretty straight forward tech solution to this

That also would speed grading, make it more accurate/ consistent, identify fraud, and build provenance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Hopefully the use of technology could create a win win where the process can improve without a material increase in cost.

[QUOTE=pewe;14615829]As we discussed in a separate thread... speed isn’t the issue, it’s the use of humans... as we outlined there is a pretty straight forward tech solution to this

That also would speed grading, make it more accurate/ consistent, identify fraud, and build provenance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]



Tend to agree with this as a compromise. Humans have shown throughout history that if something subjective can be exploited for a profit, it will be done. Period.
But then would the machines have ways to manually adjust the variances? Would said machines require consistent regulatory checks much like a gas pump to ensure fairness? I dunno..


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[QUOTE=dmanrico;14615827]There’s no way. Whether we like it or not TPG gives liquidity to cards and liquidity creates price increases. The Acuna US 250 is the perfect case in point. Raws are increasing in price because PSA 10s are increasing. Without that, we’re left with thousands of the exact same card on the market.[/QUOTE]



So what? 1986 Donruss Cansecos were over $100 raw each before any of this silliness. The economy, and all our discretionary spending has a lot more to do with speculative modern card prices IMO.


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