[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18556912]Share some examples of said loans.[/QUOTE]

Do you know where I can find past loans and assessed market values at the time?

I know what I sold the cards in my vault for and a few were definitely under that 40% appraised threshold, but searching the app and website I can’t currently find past appraisal or past loan info? To be fair, my cards never sold to get a true “market rate” and PWCC also undervalued some cards heavily.

It appears they’re still doling out 1% monthly rates, but SOFR and LIBOR have basically quadrupled since I was taking the loans. That risk obviously hasn’t been passed along.

Like I said, I’d love to be a fly on the wall…

[QUOTE=GeechQuest;18556961]Do you know where I can find past loans and assessed market values at the time?

I know what I sold the cards in my vault for and a few were definitely under that 40% appraised threshold, but searching the app and website I can’t currently find past appraisal or past loan info? To be fair, my cards never sold to get a true “market rate” and PWCC also undervalued some cards heavily.

It appears they’re still doling out 1% monthly rates, but SOFR and LIBOR have basically quadrupled since I was taking the loans. That risk obviously hasn’t been passed along.

Like I said, I’d love to be a fly on the wall…[/QUOTE]
Email? Or just generally what loan you were given on what card and when. Doesn’t matter what you ended up selling the card for. Just what the market value was at the time the loan was created.

[QUOTE=RogerGodahell;18556939]Yeah but what about if they just start another one since the last one was so profitable for investors? Those same people who invested in the first one would probably be willing to again plus more. I think it was $25K min if i recall correctly. I thought about it but just decided to go solo and buy my own instead.[/QUOTE]

Investors wont see a dime until 2024.

Will be interesting to see the results when they go to offload boxes that would be better used for Black Friday door busters in 2 days.

They have 80 boxes of 2019/20 Prizm Collegiate Draft Picks at a fund cost of $290 per. They currently value it at $490.

Will be fun to watch! I wish they'd release 2022 Q3!

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18556979]Email? Or just generally what loan you were given on what card and when. Doesn’t matter what you ended up selling the card for. Just what the market value was at the time the loan was created.[/QUOTE]

I'll shoot them one and see if they have a list. It absolutely matters what I sold some cards for though.

You can't survive giving loans above market value, should loans need to be called. Again, to be fair, some cards were overvalued and some cards were undervalued. Maybe I'm missing something?

If PWCC gave out $175M on the back of assets that have a current valuation of...$100M, $75M? $125M?, take your pick, they're on the hook for the difference.

If PWCC gave me a loan on a Zion Silver PSA 10 in August, they're possibly underwater on the loan. They can call it and force a liquidation, but that could possibly further spiral other loans at new valuations.

We've watched this entire saga play out in other spaces (namely crypto) all year.

I'd just love to see what they're underwriting. It can't look pretty. Have loans against unproductive assets ever worked out? I know this is a relatively new Post-Covid space we're in. Maybe PWCC is the exception to what we've seen so far. Their bonds are yielding amazingly if you believe that to be the case (not YOU Khal, but anybody).

[QUOTE=GeechQuest;18557049]I'll shoot them one and see if they have a list. It absolutely matters what I sold some cards for though.

You can't survive giving loans above market value, should loans need to be called. Again, to be fair, some cards were overvalued and some cards were undervalued. Maybe I'm missing something?

If PWCC gave out $175M on the back of assets that have a current valuation of...$100M, $75M? $125M?, take your pick, they're on the hook for the difference.

If PWCC gave me a loan on a Zion Silver PSA 10 in August, they're possibly underwater on the loan. They can call it and force a liquidation, but that could possibly further spiral other loans at new valuations.

We've watched this entire saga play out in other spaces (namely crypto) all year.

I'd just love to see what they're underwriting. It can't look pretty. Have loans against unproductive assets ever worked out? I know this is a relatively new Post-Covid space we're in. Maybe PWCC is the exception to what we've seen so far. Their bonds are yielding amazingly if you believe that to be the case (not YOU Khal, but anybody).[/QUOTE]

I work in asset based lending.

Would be interesting to know if PWCC is carrying these loans, or if they are utilizing a bank line by boarding these loans and making the payments along the way. Also the delinquency rate on the payments.

With the rising cost of funds, they've been squeezed and may be cash flow negative given the LTV. Are they really offering 1%? If so, just lighting VC cash on fire. Someone may go to jail.

What type of recourse did they have on the loans? Are they personally guaranteed?

[QUOTE=GeechQuest;18557049]I'll shoot them one and see if they have a list. It absolutely matters what I sold some cards for though.

You can't survive giving loans above market value, should loans need to be called. Again, to be fair, some cards were overvalued and some cards were undervalued. Maybe I'm missing something?

If PWCC gave out $175M on the back of assets that have a current valuation of...$100M, $75M? $125M?, take your pick, [B]they're on the hook for the difference.[/B]

If PWCC gave me a loan on a Zion Silver PSA 10 in August, they're possibly underwater on the loan. They can call it and force a liquidation, but that could possibly further spiral other loans at new valuations.

We've watched this entire saga play out in other spaces (namely crypto) all year.

I'd just love to see what they're underwriting. It can't look pretty. Have loans against unproductive assets ever worked out? I know this is a relatively new Post-Covid space we're in. Maybe PWCC is the exception to what we've seen so far. Their bonds are yielding amazingly if you believe that to be the case (not YOU Khal, but anybody).[/QUOTE]

but they're not on the hook for that entire amount.

They're only on the hook for the amount people don't pay back.

So their default rate could be super low and they'd be fine.

If I'm understanding the model correctly

[QUOTE=GeechQuest;18557010]Investors wont see a dime until 2024.

Will be interesting to see the results when they go to offload boxes that would be better used for Black Friday door busters in 2 days.

They have 80 boxes of 2019/20 Prizm Collegiate Draft Picks at a fund cost of $290 per. They currently value it at $490.

Will be fun to watch! I wish they'd release 2022 Q3![/QUOTE]

I'll bet they've got plenty of other ones that will offset that garbage. I don't have the list anymore but i'm sure they're still up several 100%.

[QUOTE=GeechQuest;18557049]I'll shoot them one and see if they have a list. It absolutely matters what I sold some cards for though.

You can't survive giving loans above market value, should loans need to be called. Again, to be fair, some cards were overvalued and some cards were undervalued. Maybe I'm missing something?

If PWCC gave out $175M on the back of assets that have a current valuation of...$100M, $75M? $125M?, take your pick, they're on the hook for the difference.

If PWCC gave me a loan on a Zion Silver PSA 10 in August, they're possibly underwater on the loan. They can call it and force a liquidation, but that could possibly further spiral other loans at new valuations.

We've watched this entire saga play out in other spaces (namely crypto) all year.

I'd just love to see what they're underwriting. It can't look pretty. Have loans against unproductive assets ever worked out? I know this is a relatively new Post-Covid space we're in. Maybe PWCC is the exception to what we've seen so far. Their bonds are yielding amazingly if you believe that to be the case (not YOU Khal, but anybody).[/QUOTE]
You’re missing my point.

The loans are made based on a conservative valuation at the time of the loan. PWCC can’t predict what the value is going to be in the future. As I said in my original post, I understand them to be quick to call loans when the leveraged asset depreciates. I don’t think they’re allowing a loan to still be floating out there if the asset has fallen by 50% in price. But even if they did, they’re saying they only loan 40% of the assessed value. So they’re loaning a conservative amount on a conservative valuation. They’ve built themselves nice protection.

And no, PWCC is not on the hook for the difference. They’re only on the hook for the difference if they can’t recover it through other means. If I took a $500k loan out against my vault, and now my vault is only worth $250k, they’re not going to just take a loss on that additional $250k they want back. They’re going to come after all my other assets and make themselves whole. Not that they want it to come down to that, but they can do that if necessary. And as far as I’m aware, that’s yet to happen.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18557176]You’re missing my point.

The loans are made based on a conservative valuation at the time of the loan. PWCC can’t predict what the value is going to be in the future. As I said in my original post, I understand them to be quick to call loans when the leveraged asset depreciates. I don’t think they’re allowing a loan to still be floating out there if the asset has fallen by 50% in price. But even if they did, they’re saying they only loan 40% of the assessed value. So they’re loaning a conservative amount on a conservative valuation. They’ve built themselves nice protection.

And no, PWCC is not on the hook for the difference. They’re only on the hook for the difference if they can’t recover it through other means. If I took a $500k loan out against my vault, and now my vault is only worth $250k, they’re not going to just take a loss on that additional $250k they want back. They’re going to come after all my other assets and make themselves whole. Not that they want it to come down to that, but they can do that if necessary. And as far as I’m aware, that’s yet to happen.[/QUOTE]

Is PWCC a secured creditor?

Let's say they lent 50% of a $54K card = $27,000. That card goes up for auction and sells for $12K in November 2022. How are they protected? Lending on such a volatile asset is a fool's errand. They demand immediate repayment from the borrower...and then what?

File an action against the borrower and seek repayment under what I hope to God was a Personal Guarantee.

That could take 6-12 months in court and in the meantime, PWCC is paying their legal team thousands multiplied by the amount of defaults/delinquencies.

Not to mention, as a non-traditional lender, the debtor may dispute the demand amount or claim anything that may mitigate their underlying debt--further delaying or even eliminating repayment.

Does PWCC have the juice to carry that many deals? And even if they are putting it on a bank line, they would probably be recourse on the underlying obligations regardless. Or even worse--full recourse to their investors.

[QUOTE=GeechQuest;18557049]I'll shoot them one and see if they have a list. It absolutely matters what I sold some cards for though.

You can't survive giving loans above market value, should loans need to be called. Again, to be fair, some cards were overvalued and some cards were undervalued. Maybe I'm missing something?

If PWCC gave out $175M on the back of assets that have a current valuation of...$100M, $75M? $125M?, take your pick, they're on the hook for the difference.

If PWCC gave me a loan on a Zion Silver PSA 10 in August, they're possibly underwater on the loan. They can call it and force a liquidation, but that could possibly further spiral other loans at new valuations.

We've watched this entire saga play out in other spaces (namely crypto) all year.

I'd just love to see what they're underwriting. It can't look pretty. Have loans against unproductive assets ever worked out? I know this is a relatively new Post-Covid space we're in. Maybe PWCC is the exception to what we've seen so far. Their bonds are yielding amazingly if you believe that to be the case (not YOU Khal, but anybody).[/QUOTE]

this happened with a few NFT lending platforms, long story short they have no money and a bunch of bored apes

[QUOTE=cholodolo;18557329]Is PWCC a secured creditor?

Let's say they lent 50% of a $54K card = $27,000. That card goes up for auction and sells for $12K in November 2022. How are they protected? Lending on such a volatile asset is a fool's errand. They demand immediate repayment from the borrower...and then what?

File an action against the borrower and seek repayment under what I hope to God was a Personal Guarantee.

That could take 6-12 months in court and in the meantime, PWCC is paying their legal team thousands multiplied by the amount of defaults/delinquencies.

Not to mention, as a non-traditional lender, the debtor may dispute the demand amount or claim anything that may mitigate their underlying debt--further delaying or even eliminating repayment.

Does PWCC have the juice to carry that many deals? And even if they are putting it on a bank line, they would probably be recourse on the underlying obligations regardless. Or even worse--full recourse to their investors.[/QUOTE]
They wouldn’t lend 50% on a $54k card. They’d lend 40% maximum on a market value that is already being conservatively assessed. And they’re not waiting around for the value to plummet before they call your loan.

I don’t know how they’re managing their risk. All I know is that they are very conservative in their loan program.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18557374]

I don’t know how they’re managing their risk. All I know is that they are very conservative in their loan program.[/QUOTE]

I’ll be honest and say I also don’t know how they manage risk. I’ll also say NOBODY knows how to manage risk against collateralized cards.

I took loans out against rare stuff (not IG influencer rare, but stuff that is basically non existent). Nobody can properly value that stuff and PWCC never once adjusted their assessed value on my port.

Just red flags in my eyes is all.

The only reason I care is because it’s that margin that has kept card values as elevated as they are. I do know PWCC upped the value on what they would lend which is why I stopped. I didn’t want to be extended that far. This was back in June.

Cards are so illiquid and prices are so arbitrary, you can’t really value them which makes it impossible to assess risk IMO.

Odds of PWCC blowing up like all other non-productive asset backed lenders: -110

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18557374]They wouldn’t lend 50% on a $54k card. They’d lend 40% maximum on a market value that is already being conservatively assessed. And they’re not waiting around for the value to plummet before they call your loan.

I don’t know how they’re managing their risk. All I know is that they are very conservative in their loan program.[/QUOTE]

How do you know that? Can you post some of the information you have reviewed to arrive at that conclusion?

Ok, so they have a maximum spread they are comfortable with? For example, maximum loss LTV on X card is $15k? Given PWCC deals in high-end, they are not lending $2,500.

I've never dealt with PWCC directly, and never really followed the auctions, but I've seen a whole hell of a lot of financial meltdowns. This smells a little off.

Edit: And unless they've got some really screwy paperwork, they just can't call in a loan because they are hurting. It's a contract with fixed payments. Not to mention if they filed a UCC or any sort of paperwork from the borrower granting them the personal property as collateral. Having a collateral based loan is a long way from liquidating that asset for cash.

[QUOTE=cholodolo;18557415]How do you know that? Can you post some of the information you have reviewed to arrive at that conclusion?

Ok, so they have a maximum spread they are comfortable with? For example, maximum loss LTV on X card is $15k? Given PWCC deals in high-end, they are not lending $2,500.

I've never dealt with PWCC directly, and never really followed the auctions, but I've seen a whole hell of a lot of financial meltdowns. This smells a little off.

Edit: And unless they've got some really screwy paperwork, they just can't call in a loan because they are hurting. It's a contract with fixed payments. Not to mention if they filed a UCC or any sort of paperwork from the borrower granting them the personal property as collateral. Having a collateral based loan is a long way from liquidating that asset for cash.[/QUOTE]

They called my loan of $2K back in May of this year. Bumped minimum amount given to $5K as of June (that may have moved up).

Nothing changed on my end except that they were only lending up to $5K minimum now. I didn't want to take on that margin, so I sold out of PWCC.

[QUOTE=cholodolo;18557415]How do you know that? Can you post some of the information you have reviewed to arrive at that conclusion?

Ok, so they have a maximum spread they are comfortable with? For example, maximum loss LTV on X card is $15k? Given PWCC deals in high-end, they are not lending $2,500.

I've never dealt with PWCC directly, and never really followed the auctions, but I've seen a whole hell of a lot of financial meltdowns. This smells a little off.

Edit: And unless they've got some really screwy paperwork, they just can't call in a loan because they are hurting. It's a contract with fixed payments. Not to mention if they filed a UCC or any sort of paperwork from the borrower granting them the personal property as collateral. Having a collateral based loan is a long way from liquidating that asset for cash.[/QUOTE]
I read their website and can see how they low ball value the cards in my vault.

[QUOTE]Clients can request a loan against the market value of their assets in storage. The market value of your portfolio is determined through our in-house algorithm which leverages recent auction sale prices and addresses outliers and price volatility. We can lend up to 40% of the market value of the portfolio depending on the specific assets. As an example, we lend 40% on cards that have stable pricing and reliable liquidation options. We lend less than 40% on cards with volatile pricing, modern players, ungraded cards, and other assets. Loans are issued on a 3-month term limit with optional renewal. Interest will be 1% per month and PWCC Capital may apply a 1% origination fee.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=GeechQuest;18557424]They called my loan of $2K back in May of this year. Bumped minimum amount given to $5K as of June (that may have moved up).

Nothing changed on my end except that they were only lending up to $5K minimum now. I didn't want to take on that margin, so I sold out of PWCC.[/QUOTE]

Ah, so they are cash advances at low rates with them already holding possession of the collateral. Woof. Nice guys.

Given your experience, how badly do you believe other collectors are leveraged with PWCC? Knowing the rate of degeneracy and reckless borrowing present in the hobby makes me nervous.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18557448]I read their website and can see how they low ball value the cards in my vault.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that -- so they lend on the entire portfolio's value. Is it clear to you how they are judging cards to be "stable" with "reliable liquidation options"? Is there an indicator in your vault for the items or would it only be assessed once you apply for the loan?

There are definitely some high monthly payments out there, but if it is actually administered as it reads, they are fairly safe. Would love to see one of the contracts.

[QUOTE=cholodolo;18557587]Thanks for that -- so they lend on the entire portfolio's value. Is it clear to you how they are judging cards to be "stable" with "reliable liquidation options"? Is there an indicator in your vault for the items or would it only be assessed once you apply for the loan?

There are definitely some high monthly payments out there, but if it is actually administered as it reads, they are fairly safe. Would love to see one of the contracts.[/QUOTE]
You can see the insured value of the items in your portfolio. I don’t know how they determine the “market value” once you inquire about a loan.

I have no interest in ever taking out a loan against my cards. I’ll never be in a place where that makes any sense for me. I just view the risk of the loan program to PWCC to be fairly minimal based on how conservatively they’ve structured it.

Can anyone give me the condensed outcome of this thread? I was one of the last posters on that old thread but am getting to that contrary old bastard phase in life and don't want to read the bickering anymore.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;18557622] I just view the risk of the loan program to PWCC to be fairly minimal based on how conservatively they’ve structured it.[/QUOTE]

But is the loan program on a macro level conservative? How much money have they handed out? If a card(s) tank, and they have handed out a ton of money, how are they going to be made whole?

[QUOTE=theleica;18557642]But is the loan program on a macro level conservative? How much money have they handed out? If a card(s) tank, and they have handed out a ton of money, how are they going to be made whole?[/QUOTE]
They just secured a $175M credit facility for the loan program in August. They claimed $750M in vaulted assets at the time. Understanding that most PWCC users are not taking loans out against their cards, I am sure they are doing just fine.

For all of Brent and Betsy’s past faults, they were years ahead of everyone in the vault marketplace space. All that money at PSA and they’re still using shared storage space in Delaware for their vault, and have yet to launch a fixed price marketplace.

[QUOTE=AbraCalabro;18556413]been a while since I read the whole thing, but this is the gist of it:

Artee sold leore three Kobe cards

leore sends those cards to psa

psa says two are fake and one is real

psa pays leore the money for the two fake ones

leore keeps the money (scams psa) and the one real card

Artee doesn't get paid

leore blames Artee for there not being any resolution

Artee posts proof that puts leore down for the KO[/QUOTE]


There is a special place in hell for snakes like that.

I wonder how investacard is doing

[QUOTE=thenwhatjk;18562875]I wonder how investacard is doing[/QUOTE]

Eddie Siegel and Josh Luber were some of my favorite interviews of recent memory. They can talk for hours on end without actually saying anything. True magicians.

Did anyone hear an explanation from blowout?
From the old link in the OP, I sent admin a note and haven't received a response but not sure if that's common or maybe Holiday related.

[QUOTE=auburn35;18563765]Did anyone hear an explanation from blowout?
From the old link in the OP, I sent admin a note and haven't received a response but not sure if that's common or maybe Holiday related.[/QUOTE]

I haven't, I doubt they're going to. My best guess is someone spoke to leadership personally, or spoke to leadership through counsel and BO quietly removed the thread hoping no one would notice.

Another possibility is Artee asked for the thread to be deleted, but until we hear from him, I have my doubts about this possibility.