Personally, I freaking dislike Bonds and don't own a single one of his cards. That said, a record with an asterisk is still a record.

[QUOTE=RW3FAN;18410073]Do people say that about Lance Armstrong?
Everyone was doping in The Tour when Lance won.
Amazing, they stripped him of his titles even though the next 8 people that finished behind him in those Tours, also at some point tested positive in their careers.
Bonds ruined his legacy. He would have been a HOFer without them, but just couldn't help himself.[/QUOTE]

I'd assume if you asked someone who is the best cyclist of all time they would say lance armstrong (I know I would) and I don't even consider what he did was cheating.

If you were a cyclist.... you took steroids
If you were in track and field.... you took steroids
Hell if you were in wwf... you took steroids
If you played college football/nfl... you took steroids
If you played college baseball/mlb.... you took steroids

But lets crucify Bonds for something that was just the "accepted" norm at the time. But for some reason overlook the other, probably 90% of baseball that was on it and completely ignore it for football while all the guys are 6'3'' 260 running 4.5 40s and benching 500 pounds

[QUOTE=johnlocke36;18410240]I'd assume if you asked someone who is the best cyclist of all time they would say lance armstrong (I know I would) and I don't even consider what he did was cheating.

If you were a cyclist.... you took steroids
If you were in track and field.... you took steroids
Hell if you were in wwf... you took steroids
If you played college football/nfl... you took steroids
If you played college baseball/mlb.... you took steroids

But lets crucify Bonds for something that was just the "accepted" norm at the time. But for some reason overlook the other, probably 90% of baseball that was on it and completely ignore it for football while all the guys are 6'3'' 260 running 4.5 40s and benching 500 pounds[/QUOTE]


Then lets also pretend like older players from the 70's and 80's weren't juicing like crazy also. Tom House said he knew of at least 8 guys on his staff were juicing like crazy so I imagine if most of the players were able to lay off the coke long enough to do a few cycles all of your older heroes we wish Bonds was, were probably doing it as well.

[QUOTE=Aultimate21;18410194]Need an asterisk for diluted pitching. Babe at 60 now in the lead.. Oh wait…[/QUOTE]Don't be obtuse. Expansion is a normal evolution of nearly every sport, including baseball.


[IMG]https://www.blowoutforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=527405&stc=1&d=1662568454[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Flip024;18410224]Fortunately/unfortunately, opinions don't matter here. [B]Facts are facts, Bonds holds the MLB HR records.[/B] People can choose not to like it but that doesn't change anything.[/QUOTE]Not legitimately. Otherwise, he'd be in the HOF by now.

[QUOTE=pip;18410309]Not legitimately. Otherwise, [B]he'd be in the HOF by now[/B].[/QUOTE]

The problem then becomes that y'all have simply drawn a line in the sand... and unfortunately it's not a straight one. If we're holding the HoF as this incredible standard of integrity, then get Ortiz the hell out of there.

The "Hall" is simply a popularity contest for baseball writers and "purists" who are also human and make mistakes.

It's fine to acknowledge what Bonds did in both the record books and to his body. But are we also going to acknowledge that greenies were PEDs as well? And if so, how far back are we going to dig to see who was using what? I guarantee you there are plenty names in the hall who used substances that gave them an edge. How many pitchers used what we now call "sticky substances" - we can play this game all day long. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=pip;18410305]Don't be obtuse. Expansion is a normal evolution of nearly every sport, including baseball.


[IMG]https://www.blowoutforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=527405&stc=1&d=1662568454[/IMG][/QUOTE]

And just like today, guys are still taking things to get around the testing system in place. Some just get caught (Tatis) but most don’t…

[QUOTE=daeve;18410342]The problem then becomes that y'all have simply drawn a line in the sand... and unfortunately it's not a straight one. [B]If we're holding the HoF as this incredible standard of integrity, then get Ortiz the hell out of there. [/B]

The "Hall" is simply a popularity contest for baseball writers and "purists" who are also human and make mistakes.

It's fine to acknowledge what Bonds did in both the record books and to his body. But are we also going to acknowledge that greenies were PEDs as well? And if so, how far back are we going to dig to see who was using what? I guarantee you there are plenty names in the hall who used substances that gave them an edge. How many pitchers used what we now call "sticky substances" - we can play this game all day long. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Sounds great to me. :)!

[QUOTE=daeve;18410342]The problem then becomes that y'all have simply drawn a line in the sand... and unfortunately it's not a straight one. If we're holding the HoF as this incredible standard of integrity, then get Ortiz the hell out of there.

The "Hall" is simply a popularity contest for baseball writers and "purists" who are also human and make mistakes.

It's fine to acknowledge what Bonds did in both the record books and to his body. But are we also going to acknowledge that greenies were PEDs as well? And if so, how far back are we going to dig to see who was using what? I guarantee you there are plenty names in the hall who used substances that gave them an edge. How many pitchers used what we now call "sticky substances" - we can play this game all day long. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]I'm not saying Ortiz should stay in but Bonds was the Lance Armstrong of baseball. His use of PEDs was both flagrant and extensive. If the HOF were simply a popularity contest for baseball writers, guys like Ted Williams would have had to wait for the Veterans Committee vote.

Every year the HOF inductees are announced and Barry Bonds name isn't on there I light a celebratory cigarette. It's so unbelievably satisfying to me to see him get snubbed year after year. Sadly that time will come to and end soon but I will continue to celebrate as long as it lasts. Nothing will ever take away the smile on my face each year.

Harold Baines is in the HOF

[QUOTE=ThoseBackPages;18410420]Harold Baines is in the HOF[/QUOTE]

#WillieMcGeeHOF

[QUOTE=pip;18410305]Don't be obtuse. Expansion is a normal evolution of nearly every sport, including baseball.


[IMG]https://www.blowoutforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=527405&stc=1&d=1662568454[/IMG][/QUOTE]

It's not so much the expansion as it was him doing it in a segregated league for me.

[QUOTE=atk825;18410430]It's not so much the expansion as it was him doing it in a segregated league for me.[/QUOTE]There were more talented African Americans playing in 1961 than there are now. It's not even really close.

[QUOTE=pip;18410457]There were more talented African Americans playing in 1961 than there are now. It's not even really close.[/QUOTE]

Say what? How did you come to this conclusion?

The entire ruse of "ridding the sport of steroids" was merely a reactionary response to two things looming immediately over the sport...the notion that #755 could fall and Congress snooping around.

Everyone either knew about steroid use (regardless of how they chose to believe it) or were simply too young to see what was obvious. But this wasn't new. Not at all.

No one in the sport cared about rampant amphetamine usage after World War II, and no one in the sport cared when they became a controlled substance in 1970. Similarly, no one in the sport (other than Fay Vincent) cared about steroids when they became a controlled substance in 1990.

Nope, not a care in the world of baseball.

Everyone loved the money and the attention, so the game was concerned about keeping the money flowing rather than some sort of farcical "integrity" cause when "integrity" had rarely been top of mind previously.

Yet here comes Barry Bonds. A surly and cantankerous player who has spent his life working on decoding pitchers, the game and patience. Each year in the league he showed the results of that work. More selective, more patience.

The game starts seeing record numbers, records falling and swollen superheroes stuffed into uniforms clowning around with everything but a needle in the arm.

Heroes. Saviors. Cash cows for everyone involved in the game.

Barry Bonds wants his praise too.

Then came Congress and the hunt for #756 and viola...time for baseball to get serious about usage.

Then came sanctimonious clowns like Joe Morgan beginning to rewrite history and take up a new cause.

Time for Bud Selig to put on a charade and package some sort of "Steroid Era" into a neat, definable era and do whatever he can to keep Congress (and #755) at bay.

Manfred, Selig's little lapdog polishing off the buttoned up children's story that made an infantile attempt to shirk any responsibility and to help paint the game as somehow the white knight.

Baseball has long been the "Wild West" of experimentation and always will be.

Sadly, baseball has also long been revisionist in its self-policing and selective in choosing its enemies.

[QUOTE=discostu;18410487]The entire ruse of "ridding the sport of steroids" was merely a reactionary response to two things looming immediately over the sport...the notion that #755 could fall and Congress snooping around.

Everyone either knew about steroid use (regardless of how they chose to believe it) or were simply too young to see what was obvious. But this wasn't new. Not at all.

No one in the sport cared about rampant amphetamine usage after World War II, and no one in the sport cared when they became a controlled substance in 1970. Similarly, no one in the sport (other than Fay Vincent) cared about steroids when they became a controlled substance in 1990.

Nope, not a care in the world of baseball.

Everyone loved the money and the attention, so the game was concerned about keeping the money flowing rather than some sort of farcical "integrity" cause when "integrity" had rarely been top of mind previously.

Yet here comes Barry Bonds. A surly and cantankerous player who has spent his life working on decoding pitchers, the game and patience. Each year in the league he showed the results of that work. More selective, more patience.

The game starts seeing record numbers, records falling and swollen superheroes stuffed into uniforms clowning around with everything but a needle in the arm.

Heroes. Saviors. Cash cows for everyone involved in the game.

Barry Bonds wants his praise too.

Then came Congress and the hunt for #756 and viola...time for baseball to get serious about usage.

Then came sanctimonious clowns like Joe Morgan beginning to rewrite history and take up a new cause.

Time for Bud Selig to put on a charade and package some sort of "Steroid Era" into a neat, definable era and do whatever he can to keep Congress (and #755) at bay.

Manfred, Selig's little lapdog polishing off the buttoned up children's story that made an infantile attempt to shirk any responsibility and to help paint the game as somehow the white knight.

Baseball has long been the "Wild West" of experimentation and always will be.

Sadly, baseball has also long been revisionist in its self-policing and selective in choosing its enemies.[/QUOTE]

People often gloss over the fact that where there is big money involved, there is politics, and where there is politics, there is PR.

Excellent post, said it perfectly.

[QUOTE=pip;18410045]Roger Maris still holds the single season home run record and Hank Aaron holds the lifetime record.

Bonds' own attorney has stated multiple times that his client admitted to PED use during his career so he's disqualified as are Sosa and McGwire. Leaked grand jury testimony from Bonds further confirms his attorney's assertion.

The BALCO and MLB testing records also prove Bonds’ use of multiple doping substances, from 2001 through 2006--after testing was first employed by MLB--including injectable anabolic steroids, injectable human growth hormone, post cycle therapy drugs and amphetamines.

Phenomenal player but not worthy of the HOF and all his "records" need an asterisk.[/QUOTE]

You do realize there's a difference between the official record and people's opinion of it, right? Factually speaking, Barry Bonds is the record holder for single season home run total and career home run total. Just because you believe he doesn't deserve the records, doesn't mean he doesn't hold the records.

He also became the only 400-400 player in the history of the game in 1998, before he reportedly started using steroids. He was a three-time MVP award winner by 1993. The BALCO stuff came afterwards.

Do you also realize that Bonds faced many pitchers who were using steroids?:
[QUOTE]Manfred said positive tests from the inception of minor league drug testing in 2001 have shown that steroids are more popular among pitchers than commonly believed, a fact he attributed to the expectation that such drugs can help pitchers better endure the grind of the long season.

"It was a mistake for people to assume it was hitters and not pitchers from the beginning," Manfred said. "The speculation is that in addition to bulk, there is a recovery period issue with respect to steroids that will allow you to pitch more frequently."[/QUOTE]
[url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/2006/04/30/do-steroids-give-a-shot-in-the-arm-span-classbankheadbenefits-for-pitchers-are-questionablespan/86cf7192-2545-4a4a-851e-5b44d5df6614/[/url]

[QUOTE]This revealing portrait -- 31 of 68 suspended players being pitchers -- has emerged because baseball has begun suspending and naming major leaguers for first-time steroid violations and has begun publicizing the names of transgressors in the minor leagues, where suspensions have been levied since 2002.

"I think at the heart of the issue is, everybody is always seeking a competitive edge," said Tony La Russa, manager of the St. Louis Cardinals. "It just doesn't mean pitchers or hitters. If that gives you an edge, then everybody is going to seek to do it. So it probably shouldn't surprise anybody."[/QUOTE]
[url]https://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/18/sports/baseball/steroidassisted-fastballs-pitchers-face-new-spotlight.html[/url]

[QUOTE=discostu;18410487]The entire ruse of "ridding the sport of steroids" was merely a reactionary response to two things looming immediately over the sport...the notion that #755 could fall and Congress snooping around.

Everyone either knew about steroid use (regardless of how they chose to believe it) or were simply too young to see what was obvious. But this wasn't new. Not at all.

No one in the sport cared about rampant amphetamine usage after World War II, and no one in the sport cared when they became a controlled substance in 1970. Similarly, no one in the sport (other than Fay Vincent) cared about steroids when they became a controlled substance in 1990.

Nope, not a care in the world of baseball.

Everyone loved the money and the attention, so the game was concerned about keeping the money flowing rather than some sort of farcical "integrity" cause when "integrity" had rarely been top of mind previously.

Yet here comes Barry Bonds. A surly and cantankerous player who has spent his life working on decoding pitchers, the game and patience. Each year in the league he showed the results of that work. More selective, more patience.

The game starts seeing record numbers, records falling and swollen superheroes stuffed into uniforms clowning around with everything but a needle in the arm.

Heroes. Saviors. Cash cows for everyone involved in the game.

Barry Bonds wants his praise too.

Then came Congress and the hunt for #756 and viola...time for baseball to get serious about usage.

Then came sanctimonious clowns like Joe Morgan beginning to rewrite history and take up a new cause.

Time for Bud Selig to put on a charade and package some sort of "Steroid Era" into a neat, definable era and do whatever he can to keep Congress (and #755) at bay.

Manfred, Selig's little lapdog polishing off the buttoned up children's story that made an infantile attempt to shirk any responsibility and to help paint the game as somehow the white knight.

Baseball has long been the "Wild West" of experimentation and always will be.

Sadly, baseball has also long been revisionist in its self-policing and selective in choosing its enemies.[/QUOTE]

Did you really call Joe Morgan a sanctimonious clown?

[QUOTE=rats60;18410118][B]Great power in HR friendly 3 Rivers. [/B]33, 25 and 34 HRs his last 3 years. 176 HRs in 7 years. Even better in the postseason .191 BA . 265 SLG with 1 HR and 3 RBI in 20 games. He had as many strikeouts as hits. It is amazing what doping can do, just ask Lance Armstrong. 586 HR because of steroids, yet Bonds is not a Hall of Famer. I guess he really wasn't very good, at least without drugs.[/QUOTE]

Uhh, sorry -- you're wrong.

Three Rivers Stadium HR Park factors (100 is average; below 100 is below average):
1990: 94
1991: 95
1992: 95

Bonds was putting up great home run totals while hitting at a pitcher friendly home run park.

[QUOTE=pip;18410457]There were more talented African Americans playing in 1961 than there are now. It's not even really close.[/QUOTE]

I was referring to Ruth, who notably never had to face someone like Satchel Paige.

[QUOTE=atk825;18410705]I was referring to Ruth, who notably never had to face someone like Satchel Paige.[/QUOTE]

Or Bob Gibson or Jacob DeGrom or Randy Johnson. Lame argument.

[QUOTE=rats60;18410132]Steroids became illegal in MLB in 1989. Go ahead and keep lying to yourself to make yourself feel good about collecting a cheater.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and greenies became illegal nationally in 1970:
[url]https://www.nytimes.com/1970/10/28/archives/nixon-signs-drug-abuse-control-bill.html[/url]

That cognitive dissonance must have created a giant fissure in your brain.

[QUOTE=pip;18410414]I'm not saying Ortiz should stay in but Bonds was the Lance Armstrong of baseball. [B]His use of PEDs was both flagrant and extensive.[/B] If the HOF were simply a popularity contest for baseball writers, guys like Ted Williams would have had to wait for the Veterans Committee vote.[/QUOTE]

He reportedly used for a five year period. That's five years out of a 22 year career. MLB had a drug program his last few seasons, including when he passed Aaron in 2007.

[QUOTE=clocsta2323;18410692]Did you really call Joe Morgan a sanctimonious clown?[/QUOTE]

I did. Do you disagree?

[I]"This has been one of baseball's best seasons, one marked by outstanding individual accomplishments -- from Alex Rodriguez to Sammy Sosa to Luis Gonzalez to Bret Boone. But Bonds, with or without 71 home runs, has far surpassed them all."[/I] (Seriously, he typed this.)
- Joe Morgan October 5, 2001

[I]"The more we Hall of Famers talk about this -and we talk about it a lot-we realize we can no longer sit silent. Many of us have come to think that silence will be considered complicity."[/I] (Seriously, same guy.)
- Joe Morgan November 21, 2017