[QUOTE=Akphillips86;15768000]That’s fair, and I apologize for making a straw man out of your stance. You know your soccer and I respect you for that.

First, I think Kane is fantastic and undervalued, but I don’t set the prices on his cards, the market does. If I was a soccer manager I would be elated to have Kane on my club.

The hobby loves flash, creativity, and excitement not just goal scoring. Although his off field antics greatly hurt him as well as his physical decline, when Ronaldinho was in his prime, he embodied what the market craves. You couldn’t take your eyes off him once he had the ball because you didn’t want to miss something great.

This is why I think Sancho has the potential to be far more valuable than Kane. It’s less about the stat sheet and more about the magnetic quality of his style of play. Yes, stats matter as well as achievements, but that IT factor that Sancho has is what makes collectors excited.


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I like to analogize to basketball because it is what I know. Vince Carter might be the most electrifying player of the last twenty years. He's also probably around top 40-50ish for most collectible players. The reason - no MVPs or championships.

Long term people care only care about the best of the best and if Sancho, Mbappe, Haaland, etc. don't approach or reach (if you think they will surpass then you need to see a doctor) Messi and CR7 then no one will care about their electric play.

[QUOTE=bberns;15779736]I like to analogize to basketball because it is what I know. Vince Carter might be the most electrifying player of the last twenty years. He's also probably around top 40-50ish for most collectible players. The reason - no MVPs or championships.

Long term people care only care about the best of the best and if Sancho, Mbappe, Haaland, etc. don't approach or reach (if you think they will surpass then you need to see a doctor) Messi and CR7 then no one will care about their electric play.[/QUOTE]

You are very correct. Messi and Ronaldo are with Pele and Maradona, the best 4 players in the last 100 years. It will be very difficult for mbappe and sancho to reach those levels.

They both have to combat and win the ballondor for the next 10 years to atleast reach the level.

Let me try to put this in a nutshell. Pretty much everyone understands (or should) that neither Sancho nor Mbappe are going to challenge Messi or CR7 for all time great status. This does not change the fact that they were very solid investments up until recently because of their potential to have a very promising career. I say until recently because I think the buy in is too high for the current prices based on where each player is at in their respective careers. They were both STEALS for a while, especially considering soccer in general is starting to boom along with everything else.

For a basketball comparison, you don’t stop buying everyone that came after JORDAN just because they won’t be Jordan. If you are investing, you simply find the point on players where money is well spent and know when to stop and or sell. If you are collecting, who the heck cares buy what you want [emoji6]

To say that Mbappe and Sancho don’t hold promise is lunacy. To say they will equal or surpass Messi and CR7 is lunacy. There’s a happy medium, don’t make it so black and white.


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When is the last time a hyped prospect in soccer met expectations in the last 5 years?

I can't even think of one...

[QUOTE=Akphillips86;15781296]Let me try to put this in a nutshell. Pretty much everyone understands (or should) that neither Sancho nor Mbappe are going to challenge Messi or CR7 for all time great status. This does not change the fact that they were very solid investments up until recently because of their potential to have a very promising career. I say until recently because I think the buy in is too high for the current prices based on where each player is at in their respective careers. They were both STEALS for a while, especially considering soccer in general is starting to boom along with everything else.

For a basketball comparison, you don’t stop buying everyone that came after JORDAN just because they won’t be Jordan. If you are investing, you simply find the point on players where money is well spent and know when to stop and or sell. If you are collecting, who the heck cares buy what you want [emoji6]

To say that Mbappe and Sancho don’t hold promise is lunacy. To say they will equal or surpass Messi and CR7 is lunacy. There’s a happy medium, don’t make it so black and white.


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Couldn't have said it any better my self :)!

[QUOTE=peterose4hof;15778800]That would be great. Thanks![/QUOTE]

I have:
19, 30, 42, 45, 51, 61, 87, 99, 101, 130, 142, 147, 166, and 170

Pm me

Thanks,
Adam

[QUOTE=k13;15781729]When is the last time a hyped prospect in soccer met expectations in the last 5 years?

I can't even think of one...[/QUOTE]

I think that if you're talking players who were on the rise but not the finished article around the 2015-16 season then Raheem Sterling is a good start. Maybe also Sadio Mané.

[QUOTE=Pigo;15781986]I think that if you're talking players who were on the rise but not the finished article around the 2015-16 season then Raheem Sterling is a good start. Maybe also Sadio Mané.[/QUOTE]

mbappe is an even better example.

Everybody was questioning his move to PSG with the transfer fee close to $200 million. I guess he proved with PSG and well as in the national team that he is a good player.

“If you were to look at Kylian Mbappe's trophy cabinet, you wouldn't believe he is still only 21 years old.

A World Cup, three Ligue 1 titles, and the Coupe de France

he's won the Golden Boy award, the Ligue 1 Player of the Season trophy, and Ligue 1's top scorer prize.

He also has 122 career goals to date already, which is far more than both Lionel Messi (50) and Cristiano Ronaldo (36) had managed by the time they reached the same age.”

Not a bad start to a career.

Quoted from Business Insider - January of this year

I don’t think Gary Vee was involved in this pump

[QUOTE=bberns;15779736]I like to analogize to basketball because it is what I know. Vince Carter might be the most electrifying player of the last twenty years. He's also probably around top 40-50ish for most collectible players. The reason - no MVPs or championships.

Long term people care only care about the best of the best and if Sancho, Mbappe, Haaland, etc. don't approach or reach (if you think they will surpass then you need to see a doctor) Messi and CR7 then no one will care about their electric play.[/QUOTE]

It's quite possible that the better basketball analogy is Messi/CR7 = Bird/Magic and Mbappe is Jordan on the rise.

Not saying that will happen, of course, but it's within the range of possibilities.

You can't reasonably say Mbappe is all flash and no accomplishment when he already has a World Cup championship on his resume.

And *someone* will win the Ballon D'or after Messi (who is almost 33) and CR7 (who is 35) begin to decline and ultimately hang up the boots. Could be Mbappe; could be Sancho, Haaland, etc. Gonna be somebody.

When Mbappe, at age 19, played a significant part in France's march to a World Cup victory and finished 4th in 2018 Ballon D'or voting, people took notice. At the very least, he's drawn people's interest to the sport. Maybe we've already seen his best, but it's quite possible we haven't.

In terms of basketball analogies, he's probably more similar to Giannis (in terms of having accomplished some major things already and being on a great trajectory but still having a ways to go) than he is to Vince Carter.

My 2 cents.

People always forget Messi and Ronaldo were were relatively slow starters compared to the other greats. If you go back 15 years no one would have believed they would be two of the top 5 players in the world let alone of all time. Promising players yes but potential GOATs, no. Messi had some buzz as potentially the next Maradona but we heard that about Ortega, Aimar, Riquelme, Saviola, etc so there was a fair amount of scepticism. Cristiano Ronaldo on the other hand started off quite scrawny and a bit one dimensional, he would try stepovers and tricks but often get caught out of position. In his early years at Man U I remember a lot of fun was poked at him for that [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcZ676ggAVE[/url]

Mbappe has done more than those two at this stage in his career, but this is the age when they started kicking on and to justify the current prices he is going to have to start to match them. That means Champions Leagues, Balon d'Ors and more success with France. That said he is in good company at his age, probably only Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo [I]El Fenomeno[/I] achieved what he has at this early stage in his career. Personally I think the comparison in footballing style should be more to the likes of Ronaldo [I]El Fenomeno[/I] and Michael Owen. Both though are also cautionary tales of what chronic injuries can do to players dependant on pace. Ronaldo was still able to do enough to be considered an all time top 10 player and if Mbappe can match that I think he'll be doing well.

I like the comparison of Mbappe to Doncic, same age, similar accomplishments, I’d give the edge to Mbappe at this point.

Doncic prices are 5X Mbappe at least. Mbappe is undervalued at this point.

[QUOTE=Jeff1970Red;15783265]I like the comparison of Mbappe to Doncic, same age, similar accomplishments, I’d give the edge to Mbappe at this point.

Doncic prices are 5X Mbappe at least. Mbappe is undervalued at this point.[/QUOTE]

Maybe it depends on which cards, but Mbappe Topps Chrome refractor RCs are selling for around $400 each raw, according to recent eBay sales (within the past week) and raw Luka Prizm silver RCs are selling for about $800 in the same period, while raw Luka Optic holos are at about $400 to $500. So the gap isn't that terribly wide between Mbappe's recent prices and Luka's recent prices on at least some of the most comparable cards.

But the way prices on both guys have shot up over the past year, maybe both are overvalued! I bought 4 Mbappe Chrome refractor RCs for about 8 bucks each about a year ago (plus a blue refractor for about 40 bucks), and around the same time I bought 3 Luka Optic holo RCs for about 40 bucks each. Wish I'd bought a whole lot more!

Mbappe has few cards compared to his baseball/basketball/football counterparts. Soccer market is still small. Prices are rising because it only takes a few people to move the needle when the supply is practically zip. Going forward, I’d take an Mbappe TC refractor over a Luka Prizm Silver. And if you spend time in basketball, you know how much I love Luka.

Naming Mbpappe's team accomplishments is a joke.
Especially the french league ones.

Who cares everyone on PSG wins every time.
France won because of the team not him.

If he led Algeria to a world cup championship then that'd be something...

Zlatan at 40 scores more goals in that crap league than mbappe in his prime.

His champions league goal rate is just average not up there with Messi/Ronaldo/Lewandowski.

Majority of African players are busts/disappoints long term.
The list is endless. Always a waste of money.
Thus why Barcelona/Madrid mostly avoid them and when they do take a chance it ends up like dembele.

Another reason La Liga wins so many CL titles in recent time and overall and not EPL. Which just got lucky last year and already this year back to getting trashed. The super liverpool eam can't even beat a 3rd rate athletic team.

Remember Gotze won a WC at 21 and was supposed be better than Messi...

Blowout sold another case of 17/18 Chrome at 2650. So clearly someone like Mbappe alot.

[QUOTE=k13;15785130]Naming Mbpappe's team accomplishments is a joke.
Especially the french league ones.

Who cares everyone on PSG wins every time.
France won because of the team not him.

If he led Algeria to a world cup championship then that'd be something...

Zlatan at 40 scores more goals in that crap league than mbappe in his prime.

His champions league goal rate is just average not up there with Messi/Ronaldo/Lewandowski.

Majority of African players are busts/disappoints long term.
The list is endless. Always a waste of money.
Thus why Barcelona/Madrid mostly avoid them and when they do take a chance it ends up like dembele.

Another reason La Liga wins so many CL titles in recent time and overall and not EPL. Which just got lucky last year and already this year back to getting trashed. The super liverpool eam can't even beat a 3rd rate athletic team.

Remember Gotze won a WC at 21 and was supposed be better than Messi...[/QUOTE]

Tell us how you really feel... oy

[QUOTE=k13;15785130]

Majority of African players are busts/disappoints long term.
The list is endless. Always a waste of money.

Take whatever stance you want on whether to buy Mbappe or not, but this has got to be some of the worst reasoning I’ve seen yet. Judge a player on his merits and ability, not by nationality.

By the way, Didier Drogba anyone? Think about if you took Drogba and changed his career timeline by about 12 to 15 years. If Drogba hit his prime as Messi and CR7s careers were about to wane, and was still playing today as the hobby was gaining steam I imagine he would have fetched some pretty astounding prices. 2017-18 Didier Drogba Topps Chrome Blue Refractor RC? That would fetch some serious [emoji383][emoji383][emoji383]


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[QUOTE=k13;15785130]
Majority of African players are busts/disappoints long term.
The list is endless. Always a waste of money.
Thus why Barcelona/Madrid mostly avoid them and when they do take a chance it ends up like dembele.

Another reason La Liga wins so many CL titles in recent time and overall and not EPL. [/QUOTE]

This is some egregiously borderline stuff. Firstly, the majority of hyped young players from any nation, any league are disappointing in the long term. Let's not pretend that Africa has any monopoly on that sort of thing.

Secondly Dembele is French and was born and brought up in France playing at French clubs. So unless you're trying to make a veiled statement about black players here, let's disregard his presence in the argument.

Thirdly I'd love to see your data on the bust rate of African players. The idea that the two big Spanish clubs do or don't 'avoid' African players is going to be as tied up with cultural baggage as it is with the long-term potential of those players.

Nationality of the player is super important.
There is a say, that "you cannot be GOAT if you haven't won a World Cup".

Haland will simply never win it. He might never even play on WC.
All English players are chokers, the pressure is out of this world. Sancho will never win it. Close they get, more they choke.

If Maradona could win with Argentina, Messi should also, but he disappears in big Argentina matches. He plays well in group stage, but then... Messi won amateur Olympic tournament, that is it. Not even Copa America which plays each 2nd year.
Messi can turn the game around, but in 95% he needs the people around him. After Iniesta/Xavi/Alves/Mascherano left, Barca haven't won anything big.

Ronaldo reach European title with not so strong team. HE lose in final in 2000 or 2004, don't remember. HE won also Nation League in 2019. There were not big names in 2016 in that team. Just compare is to Figo, Rui Costa, Pauleta, Baia,...

Pele won 3 WCs, but I never saw him play, different era. He never played in Europe. he scored 1000+ goals, but in brasil league where they do not defend. Even defenders plays attack (Roberto Carlos, Marcelo, Cafu,...). Not a GOAT in my eyes.

Maradona somewhere in top5, maybe top7.

Mbappe has already won WC, and probably will win more. But there is another 20 players from that team who won it also. Pogba, Griezman, Dembele,VARANE (this guy won so many titles and no big love). No love for them.

Still, if I had to bet any player to have a chance to reach Messi/Ronaldo level, it would be definitely and only Mbappe. But the path is so long.

African players might not be in love by some teams, because there is African Cup of Nations being played each 2 years. It is played in February, and players left their clubs for a month to play for the country. I would not like that as a coach or manager.

Not sure if it is OK to compare soccer to basketball prices and trajectories.

If in 15 years somebody will show me his collection (9-foil) of Chrome refractors of Mbappe, Sancho, Haland, Havertz, Rashford,Vinicius, Rodrygo, Fati, Reyna. I would just smile, even if each of those will be 1000$ on ebay. I will just rather own other cards for 9000$. As those cards are produced in big volume, it might happen that many collectors will have on their photo of top 5 most valuable cards the same cards. I don't think it is right :)

[QUOTE=Dizz86;15785258]Pele won 3 WCs, but I never saw him play, different era. He never played in Europe. he scored 1000+ goals, but in brasil league where they do not defend. Even defenders plays attack (Roberto Carlos, Marcelo, Cafu,...). Not a GOAT in my eyes.

Maradona somewhere in top5, maybe top7.[/QUOTE]

Who do you reckon you'd have in your top 5?

That's not a fair representation of the Brazilian league in Pele's day. All the top Brazilians stayed in Brazil at the time and so it was seen as a prestigious league with the ridiculous success of the national team. When Pele did play European opposition (which was often as Santos had to tour to raise money for Pele's wages) it was business as usual. In the Intercontinental Cup finals (European champions vs South America Champions) he scored 9 goals in 5 games winning against the legendary Benfica team of Eusebio and Coluna in 62 and Milan team of Rivera and Altafini in 63. They were both massive events at the time as people then also had questions about how good that Santos team really was.

[QUOTE=Dizz86;15785258]Nationality of the player is super important.
There is a say, that "you cannot be GOAT if you haven't won a World Cup".

Haland will simply never win it. He might never even play on WC.
All English players are chokers, the pressure is out of this world. Sancho will never win it. Close they get, more they choke.

If Maradona could win with Argentina, Messi should also, but he disappears in big Argentina matches. He plays well in group stage, but then... Messi won amateur Olympic tournament, that is it. Not even Copa America which plays each 2nd year.
Messi can turn the game around, but in 95% he needs the people around him. After Iniesta/Xavi/Alves/Mascherano left, Barca haven't won anything big.

Ronaldo reach European title with not so strong team. HE lose in final in 2000 or 2004, don't remember. HE won also Nation League in 2019. There were not big names in 2016 in that team. Just compare is to Figo, Rui Costa, Pauleta, Baia,...

Pele won 3 WCs, but I never saw him play, different era. He never played in Europe. he scored 1000+ goals, but in brasil league where they do not defend. Even defenders plays attack (Roberto Carlos, Marcelo, Cafu,...). Not a GOAT in my eyes.

Maradona somewhere in top5, maybe top7.

Mbappe has already won WC, and probably will win more. But there is another 20 players from that team who won it also. Pogba, Griezman, Dembele,VARANE (this guy won so many titles and no big love). No love for them.

Still, if I had to bet any player to have a chance to reach Messi/Ronaldo level, it would be definitely and only Mbappe. But the path is so long.

African players might not be in love by some teams, because there is African Cup of Nations being played each 2 years. It is played in February, and players left their clubs for a month to play for the country. I would not like that as a coach or manager.

Not sure if it is OK to compare soccer to basketball prices and trajectories.

If in 15 years somebody will show me his collection (9-foil) of Chrome refractors of Mbappe, Sancho, Haland, Havertz, Rashford,Vinicius, Rodrygo, Fati, Reyna. I would just smile, even if each of those will be 1000$ on ebay. I will just rather own other cards for 9000$. As those cards are produced in big volume, it might happen that many collectors will have on their photo of top 5 most valuable cards the same cards. I don't think it is right :)[/QUOTE]


Wow, deep insight here. Sancho will choke because he’s English? This is almost as ridiculous as the comment about all African players being worthless. Give me a break you guys.

I love Messi/CR7 as much as the next soccer fan, but NEWS FLASH, neither one of them has won a World Cup and no one will be questioning their status as two of the greatest to grace the pitch with their presence.

I mean haters are going to hate, but at least have some valid reasons besides stereotyping and borderline racism.


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[QUOTE=Pigo;15785582]Who do you reckon you'd have in your top 5?[/QUOTE]

top4 without order: Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Pele, Zidane.

[B]Pele[/B]- we must accept that he was voted GOAT at the end of a millennium.
3 WCs, 1000+ goals. dedicated life to soccer. But he never played in Europe. In tough English league he would be injured half a season. In defensive Italian league he would not score so much.

[B]Zidane[/B] - hell of a player, won it all. 2 goals in WC final 1998. 1 goal in 2006 (Panenka penalty shot in 2nd minute, and then red card for knockouting Materazzi). Crazy winning goal in Champions league overtime agains Leverkusen. First 3 years as a coach he won 3 CL titles. Charizmatic. crazy technique, fun to watch. He could be GOAT, but on the paper other players had more trophies as a players.

[B]Messi[/B] - if he wins WC 2022 he will be GOAT without a doubt. He needs win at least Copa America to be GOAT in my eyes. 6 Golden Balls are great, but not much different when you compare it to 5 of Ronaldo. At least 1 or 2 GBs of Messi were controversial. If I had a gun in my head I would choose Messi as a GOAT.

[B]CR7[/B] - Showed his skill in England, Spain and even in Italy. I would not care about the fact he won 5 GBs against 6 GBs of Messi. That system of voting is not very objective. He became real GOAT consideration after he won EURO 2016. If he win another trophy with Portugal, he will be my GOAT.
Hardworking, but his celebrity lifestyle and crybaby style does not help in GOAT consideration. Winning CL with Juve would also help very much.

It is hard to evaluate players I saw only on youtube highlights. (Cruyff, Platini, Beckenbauer, Maradona, Van Basten,...) But we must respect them.

Other phenomenal players deserving top 15, maybe even top7 spot: Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Neuer, Pirlo.

[B]Ronaldinho [/B]was most fun to watch player ever. He won it all. Unfortunately he lost motivation. After Barca it was not it anymore. And also before Barca he was great but not considered as best in world. He had very good 3-4 years, but that is not enough.

I totally respect [B]Neuer[/B], for me he is the best keeper ever. Revolutionize GK position. But not really :) as no big change happened, because no other GK can do the same. Maybe in next years we will see more GKs playing 25-30m outside the 'net'. He won it all. Not as big charisma and leader as Buffon, but in Germany it is about team and not about ego.

[B]Beckham [/B]was also fun to watch, many thinks he was marketing product, but that is not true. His long passes to Yorke/Cole were astonishing. Even his last season at Madrid, he was the best player there for last 2-3 months, before going to US.

[QUOTE=Dizz86;15785870]top4 without order: Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Pele, Zidane.

[B]Pele[/B]- we must accept that he was voted GOAT at the end of a millennium.
3 WCs, 1000+ goals. dedicated life to soccer. But he never played in Europe. In tough English league he would be injured half a season. In defensive Italian league he would not score so much.

[B]Zidane[/B] - hell of a player, won it all. 2 goals in WC final 1998. 1 goal in 2006 (Panenka penalty shot in 2nd minute, and then red card for knockouting Materazzi). Crazy winning goal in Champions league overtime agains Leverkusen. First 3 years as a coach he won 3 CL titles. Charizmatic. crazy technique, fun to watch. He could be GOAT, but on the paper other players had more trophies as a players.

[B]Messi[/B] - if he wins WC 2022 he will be GOAT without a doubt. He needs win at least Copa America to be GOAT in my eyes. 6 Golden Balls are great, but not much different when you compare it to 5 of Ronaldo. At least 1 or 2 GBs of Messi were controversial. If I had a gun in my head I would choose Messi as a GOAT.

[B]CR7[/B] - Showed his skill in England, Spain and even in Italy. I would not care about the fact he won 5 GBs against 6 GBs of Messi. That system of voting is not very objective. He became real GOAT consideration after he won EURO 2016. If he win another trophy with Portugal, he will be my GOAT.
Hardworking, but his celebrity lifestyle and crybaby style does not help in GOAT consideration. Winning CL with Juve would also help very much.

It is hard to evaluate players I saw only on youtube highlights. (Cruyff, Platini, Beckenbauer, Maradona, Van Basten,...) But we must respect them.

Other phenomenal players deserving top 15, maybe even top7 spot: Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Neuer, Pirlo.

[B]Ronaldinho [/B]was most fun to watch player ever. He won it all. Unfortunately he lost motivation. After Barca it was not it anymore. And also before Barca he was great but not considered as best in world. He had very good 3-4 years, but that is not enough.

I totally respect [B]Neuer[/B], for me he is the best keeper ever. Revolutionize GK position. But not really :) as no big change happened, because no other GK can do the same. Maybe in next years we will see more GKs playing 25-30m outside the 'net'. He won it all. Not as big charisma and leader as Buffon, but in Germany it is about team and not about ego.

[B]Beckham [/B]was also fun to watch, many thinks he was marketing product, but that is not true. His long passes to Yorke/Cole were astonishing. Even his last season at Madrid, he was the best player there for last 2-3 months, before going to US.[/QUOTE]

Goal of the century. World Cup Quarter Final

[URL="https://youtu.be/1wVho3I0NtU"]https://youtu.be/1wVho3I0NtU[/URL]