[QUOTE=Bassplayah101;14614563]I'm just patiently waiting for the right person to lawyer up.
As far as the above consignors are concerned, there may be legal ramifications involved that would surely keep me up at night.
They are legally considered an agent of the seller and with that, responsible for ensuring the items they sell arent stolen, altered, or otherwise being sold under false pretenses.

I would be sweating at this point.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

These threads are just little things I find here and there. I don't currently have time to really work on the mammoth ones (mostly football and basketball).

That’s why I only buy PSA 9s. Can’t trust 10s :coffee

[QUOTE=Bassplayah101;14614563]I'm just patiently waiting for the right person to lawyer up.
As far as the above consignors are concerned, there may be legal ramifications involved that would surely keep me up at night.
They are legally considered an agent of the seller and with that, responsible for ensuring the items they sell arent stolen, altered, or otherwise being sold under false pretenses.

I would be sweating at this point.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

I’ve said in the past, psa is just going to use the “card met our specifications for a 10 at the time of grading” excuse.

HOLY CRAP! Great investigations, you will need to go into the secret witness program.

[QUOTE=superdan49;14614436]The current owners should be covered under PSA's grade guarantee. PSA and BGS need to huddle up with PWCC and Probstein to compare names and dates to help end the reign of fraud perpetuated by these individuals.[/QUOTE]

Based on a recent response by PWCC here on these boards:

[QUOTE]"Policing individuals has proven ineffective because people looking hurt the market will only change their IDs and submit under a different name, or simply sell their assets through other venues which ultimately does not serve the market. "[/QUOTE]


Haha, this is looking so bad for PWCC and PSA it's nuts!

[QUOTE=monkeymcgee;14614557]When it was initially jumping in price, there was a lot of market manipulation speculation. Putting that together with this situation makes me wonder.

Should we be suspicious of the Acuna US250 PSA 10 meteoric rise the last three weeks? Many of those seem to have corner issues out of the pack.

This will get really ugly...[/QUOTE]
I don't think these guys were wasting their time trimming what was a $5 card up until the last few weeks. However, these Soto/Acuna Update and Update Chrome are the perfect cards to target as they continue to grow. They're already in pretty good shape, minus a slightly dinged corner on many of the Update base. You can easily turn these into BGS 10s or black labels by choosing the right copies to trim.

Haven't been able to keep track with all the threads but excellent work.

Have either BGS or PSA responded at this point?

[QUOTE=Archangel1775;14614603]Based on a recent response by PWCC here on these boards:




Haha, this is looking so bad for PWCC and PSA it's nuts![/QUOTE]


They did clarify that statement in a subsequent post. I do believe they will be crosschecking to see if the same names keep coming up as consignors of trimmed cards. I bet we already know quite a few of those names.

$22.5k of Trimmed Harper 2012 Topps Heritage High Autos Sold via PWCC and Probstein
 

[QUOTE=JoeAdam;14614595]I’ve said in the past, psa is just going to use the “card met our specifications for a 10 at the time of grading” excuse.[/QUOTE]


“ Our grade is just our opinion”

But they’re right.

The huge hobby problem that needs to be fixed is the value of a gem-mint or pristine opinion. Clearly this opinion is overvalued.

I think they could best resolve this (PWCC and Probstein, but mostly PWCC) by releasing a list of all (graded) cards consigned to them by known trimmers like Jaimet, SSI, Burge, etc. so people know what to avoid. They don't even have to identify them by name, just provide a list.

And ban those cosigners of course.

(I know this will never happen, but it would satisfy the idea that they are truly innocent victims in this scheme.)

[QUOTE=MoreToppsPlease;14614637]“ Our grade is just our opinion”

But they’re right.

The huge hobby problem that needs to be fixed is the value of a gem-mint or pristine opinion. Clearly this opinion is overvalued.[/QUOTE]

I agree. The hobby has basically become, open pack, send good cards to get graded, sell. I think grading had value on vintage cards that were not kept in great shape. But now I see posts where people get 100% PSA 10 returns. What’s the point?

[QUOTE=monkeymcgee;14614557]Should we be suspicious of the Acuna US250 PSA 10 meteoric rise the last three weeks? Many of those seem to have corner issues out of the pack.[/QUOTE]

These cards are like 5 months old and before last week were worth, what, $35?

Please remove the tin foil hat.

[QUOTE=Wiseguy917;14614556]Has there been any chrome cards that have surfaced yet as trimmed? Not sure if that’s even possible[/QUOTE]


Yes.
[URL="https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14254646&postcount=7"]https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14254646&postcount=7[/URL]

It’s sad because besides the Burge clowns there are other who figured it out and have been trimming for awhile now. It disgusts me

[QUOTE=Wiseguy917;14614556]Has there been any chrome cards that have surfaced yet as trimmed? Not sure if that’s even possible[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I've got some kicking around. Chrome cards aren't a problem for trimmers, but it is a problem to identify them as trimmed as most (ESPECIALLY in baseball) have solid borders and do not easily show wear via scan.

Well, there we go, a PSA 10 just doesn't mean much on a really collectible card anymore. Maybe it never did. I like PSA holders but I think I'll stick to 9s and probably only cards that no one would bother to fake.

If these were submitted in MASSIVE submissions, shouldn't we expect that the other cards in said submissions were also trimmed?

[QUOTE=vwnut13;14614674]If these were submitted in MASSIVE submissions, shouldn't we expect that the other cards in said submissions were also trimmed?[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily. They use the real ones as cover.

Same reason why whenever you see someone selling a lot of 10 cards on eBay you can bet they are trying to dump some cards of lesser quality. You might not be able to sell a damaged card on its own but if you throw it in with 9 others maybe it goes unnoticed.

[QUOTE=superdan49;14614658]Yes.
[URL="https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14254646&postcount=7"]https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpost.php?p=14254646&postcount=7[/URL][/QUOTE]

Hmmmm very interesting. I don’t believe this card to be trimmed but it’s certainly been altered somehow. If that indent was taken care of via trimming, it would’ve taken a huge portion of the card away. I remember seeing someone take a huge indent/scratch out of a wooden floor with an iron when I was a young kid. He used the heat from the iron and a wet towel to almost lift the indent out of the wooden floor. I wonder if this is a technique that they use on cards....

[QUOTE=rngrdanny22;14614657]These cards are like 5 months old and before last week were worth, what, $35?

Please remove the tin foil hat.[/QUOTE]

Sure...but I don’t think you’re realizing how big this might be.

1. Stockpile trimmed 10s
2. Manipulate price and start FOMO train through shill-friendly sellers who are too big for eBay to bother
3. Profit

If you can turn $5 into $100+, why pass that up?

[QUOTE=vwnut13;14614674]If these were submitted in MASSIVE submissions, shouldn't we expect that the other cards in said submissions were also trimmed?[/QUOTE]

Yes. There a four large trimmers in the hobby. Burge and assoc., SSI, and Jaimet are the first three. The fourth, who is probably #1 or #2 by magnitude, almost exclusively uses BGS, which means I can be 100% certain what cards are coming from his submissions using submission dates. I have compiled a stupid number of cards (>2000 right now) that he has submitted. Many can be proven to be trimmed. That, however, is just the tip of the iceberg. All the recent ones went though PWCC. Earlier, (2012-2014) he used Probstein more.

I can probably do that with PSA trimmers too because of the built-in sales records.

Bottom line is that if it sold though PWCC for the first time graded, it is probably trimmed.

And finally, that's why I said that PWCC will never release a list. It would easily be tens of thousands of cards.

[QUOTE=JoeAdam;14614686]Not necessarily. They use the real ones as cover.

Same reason why whenever you see someone selling a lot of 10 cards on eBay you can bet they are trying to dump some cards of lesser quality. You might not be able to sell a damaged card on its own but if you throw it in with 9 others maybe it goes unnoticed.[/QUOTE]

So would you be willing to buy a PSA 10 from the same submission that can't be tracked back to its pre-graded form?

[QUOTE=vwnut13;14614696]So would you be willing to buy a PSA 10 from the same submission that can't be tracked back to its pre-graded form?[/QUOTE]

You think me, or most of us on here, put in that much research before we buy? Most of us are just casual collectors.

$22.5k of Trimmed Harper 2012 Topps Heritage High Autos Sold via PWCC and Probstein
 

[QUOTE=3124508 on COMC;14614693]Yes. There a four large trimmers in the hobby. Burge and assoc., SSI, and Jaimet are the first three. The fourth, who is probably #1 or #2 by magnitude, almost exclusively uses BGS, which means I can be 100% certain what cards are coming from his submissions using submission dates. I have compiled a stupid number of cards (>2000 right now) that he has submitted. Many can be proven to be trimmed. That, however, is just the tip of the iceberg. All the recent ones went though PWCC. Earlier, (2012-2014) he used Probstein more.

I can probably do that with PSA trimmers too because of the built-in sales records.

Bottom line is that if it sold though PWCC for the first time graded, it is probably trimmed.

And finally, that's why I said that PWCC will never release a list. It would easily be tens of thousands of cards.[/QUOTE]


I bet they can be compelled to release such a list...

But couldn’t someone extrapolate a likely list simply by using the serial numbers the grading companies provide on the label??

Since these posts have been showing up, I’ve noticed a fair amount of PSA 10s on eBay that look uneven to me, where there is a difference from side to side that can be seen on the top of the holder, this has to so common at this point. Seems pretty obvious most times too. Thanks for the post.