[QUOTE=Peties Army;15383881]I know Im jumping in very late but that paper trimmer cant not be the one he is using. No way that thing can cut the smooth.

My kids have one for making art(not like his but very small) and there is not way thats what is being used. It could not cut cardboard.[/QUOTE]

It's not what they are using to trim cards with.

[QUOTE=corndog;15383915]It's not what they are using to trim cards with.[/QUOTE]

Oh ok, i get it now

Should BO continue their support of PSA by letting people do group submissions on their site?

[QUOTE=Rooftop;15383936]Should BO continue their support of PSA by letting people do group submissions on their site?[/QUOTE]

Its not BO's place to get involved.

[QUOTE=Rooftop;15383936]Should BO continue their support of PSA by letting people do group submissions on their site?[/QUOTE]


If there are people ignorant enough to keep using PSA’s services, then there will be people smart enough to take their money.

[QUOTE=Rooftop;15383936]Should BO continue their support of PSA by letting people do group submissions on their site?[/QUOTE]

That's where i get confused/discouraged is that on Page 1 of BO, halfway down, there is someone who has posted "First PSA Mailday." What does that require of that person?

1) Ignorance
2) Dismissal
3) Avoidance
4) Denial
5) Chasing the $$$ so forgeddaboutit
6) All of the above

And there are so.many.posts with "lookie at what I got from PSA."

The tide has been so slow to change.....

Whether or not people use PSA’s service or buy their slabs on the secondary market is moot.

People just need to know that they shouldn’t be paying much, if any, of a premium for their slabs on the open market. Actually they should be paying less! Treat all slabs the same, including GAI, GEM, etc.

But rest assured, there will always be people who will try to get you to pay a lot more for them all the time...don’t. Assume that if prices are rising on the secondary market that the reason it’s rising is due to market manipulation and fraud.

[QUOTE=NYRE2PECT;15383953]That's where i get confused/discouraged is that on Page 1 of BO, halfway down, there is someone who has posted "First PSA Mailday." What does that require of that person?

1) Ignorance
2) Dismissal
3) Avoidance
4) Denial
5) Chasing the $$$ so forgeddaboutit
6) All of the above

And there are so.many.posts with "lookie at what I got from PSA."

The tide has been so slow to change.....[/QUOTE]

There are 100s of thousands of cards graded by PSA in a year, how many have been found to be trimmed/altered on this site? a few hundered? Its such a small % and PSA still offers the most return for investment.

[QUOTE=MoreToppsPlease;15383956]Whether or not people use PSA’s service or buy their slabs on the secondary market is moot.

People just need to know that they shouldn’t be paying much, if any, of a premium for their slabs on the open market. Actually they should be paying less! Treat all slabs the same, including GAI, GEM, etc.

But rest assured, there will always be people who will try to get you to pay a lot more for them all the time...don’t. Assume that if prices are rising on the secondary market that the reason it’s rising is due to market manipulation and fraud.[/QUOTE]

A+ post. Five stars!!

[QUOTE=Peties Army;15383961]There are 100s of thousands of cards graded by PSA in a year, how many have been found to be trimmed/altered on this site? a few hundered? Its such a small % and PSA still offers the most return for investment.[/QUOTE]

For the greater collecting universe I totally get it - we are in the overwhelming minority, but in the example that I used...these are people that obviously read the BO forums...and don't give a rip?

[QUOTE=MoreToppsPlease;15383956]But rest assured, there will always be people who will try to get you to pay a lot more for them all the time...don’t. Assume that if prices are rising on the secondary market that the reason it’s rising is due to market manipulation and fraud.[/QUOTE]
Good luck with that!

[QUOTE=NYRE2PECT;15383973]For the greater collecting universe I totally get it - we are in the overwhelming minority, but in the example that I used...these are people that obviously read the BO forums...and don't give a rip?[/QUOTE]

Oh, thats a very good point.

I know I just sent some in so I guess thats my view.

Honestly I dont even think about it.

[QUOTE=Peties Army;15383961]There are 100s of thousands of cards graded by PSA in a year, how many have been found to be trimmed/altered on this site? a few hundered? Its such a small % and PSA still offers the most return for investment.[/QUOTE]

I assure you the constraining factor is the man hours put into finding altered cards, not the number of altered cards.

I completely understand the anger and frustration directed at PSA. It's obvious they haven't been using the most basic tools available to them to grade very high-dollar cards that would require them the most and they haven't been doing this for years.

The concept that PSA is public enemy #1 over the individuals that took a proactive effort to defraud people simply blows my mind. It's so foreign to me that it's not even something I would consider worth debating. I guess I just have to say "agree to disagree" and move on. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion.

Arthur

[QUOTE=Peties Army;15383980]Oh, thats a very good point.

[B]I know I just sent some[/B] in so I guess thats my view.

Honestly I dont even think about it.[/QUOTE]

...if we don't change, why should they?

[QUOTE=blackbears86;15383600]
This is what I struggle with: Is PSA mearly inept? Are they rushing graders so much that they miss these? Or are they in on it?




I see how obvious these trimming examples are, and I think there is no way they can be missing these. Some of these cards being altered are so blatant, it looks impossible to miss them.


Plus, the logic of it all. These are cards that are 50++ years old coming up PSA 8's and 9's.---the possibility of that alone should have alarms ringing in PSA headquarters. People didn't store their cards correctly back then. The population of high grade cards from that era should be relatively small.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;15383609]Time will tell. They are definitely inept. I mean, Joe himself admitted previously that they don't measure every card. That should be a given when examining a high-grade vintage card.

I still have a hard time believing the executives at CLCT were directing graders to handout favorable grades. That's corporate malfeasance that would lead to the destruction of the company if true.[/QUOTE]


High profile submitters having DIRECT access to graders has to go to the top at PSA.

[QUOTE=corndog;15383915]It's not what they are using to trim cards with.[/QUOTE]

How about this trimming device. 'Tis the season.
[IMG]https://media1.giphy.com/media/2QxfRzZyK0HZK/giphy.gif?cid=19f5b51a174e5d73efc2528cd302791e3a008d81a28913c9&rid=giphy.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE=HarryLime;15384012]I completely understand the anger and frustration directed at PSA. It's obvious they haven't been using the most basic tools available to them to grade very high-dollar cards that would require them the most and they haven't been doing this for years.

The concept that PSA is public enemy #1 over the individuals that took a proactive effort to defraud people simply blows my mind. It's so foreign to me that it's not even something I would consider worth debating. I guess I just have to say "agree to disagree" and move on. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion.

Arthur[/QUOTE]

It's equal Arthur...in my humble view.

They don't chop if there isn't a market for it.

There's nothing to market, if there isn't a place to chop.

[QUOTE=HarryLime;15384012]I completely understand the anger and frustration directed at PSA. It's obvious they haven't been using the most basic tools available to them to grade very high-dollar cards that would require them the most and they haven't been doing this for years.

The concept that PSA is public enemy #1 over the individuals that took a proactive effort to defraud people simply blows my mind. It's so foreign to me that it's not even something I would consider worth debating. I guess I just have to say "agree to disagree" and move on. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion.

Arthur[/QUOTE]


PSA literally exists to make sure defrauders don’t exist. If PSA wasn’t a corrupt incompetent entity, defrauders wouldn’t have a place in this world. PSA holds the ag, nobody else.

[QUOTE=NYRE2PECT;15384023]It's equal Arthur...in my humble view.

They don't chop if there isn't a market for it.

There's nothing to market, if there isn't a place to chop.[/QUOTE]

Just curious and honest question: is that how you view other types of crime? The market is to blame equally?

Arthur

[QUOTE=Bruins1993;15384019]High profile submitters having DIRECT access to graders has to go to the top at PSA.[/QUOTE]
Should be easy for the FBI to prove then. A very juicy case for them.

[QUOTE=HarryLime;15384012]I completely understand the anger and frustration directed at PSA. It's obvious they haven't been using the most basic tools available to them to grade very high-dollar cards that would require them the most and they haven't been doing this for years.

The concept that PSA is public enemy #1 over the individuals that took a proactive effort to defraud people simply blows my mind. It's so foreign to me that it's not even something I would consider worth debating. I guess I just have to say "agree to disagree" and move on. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion.

Arthur[/QUOTE]

PSA would hold no blame if they didn’t claim to not grade altered cards. They need to change their grading standards and then start issuing refunds.

[QUOTE=HarryLime;15384012]I completely understand the anger and frustration directed at PSA. It's obvious they haven't been using the most basic tools available to them to grade very high-dollar cards that would require them the most and they haven't been doing this for years.

The concept that PSA is public enemy #1 over the individuals that took a proactive effort to defraud people simply blows my mind. It's so foreign to me that it's not even something I would consider worth debating. I guess I just have to say "agree to disagree" and move on. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion.

Arthur[/QUOTE]

Direct from PSA:

[B]PSA authenticates both sports and non-sports trading cards across all eras.

A series of PSA graders review your cards for authenticity. If genuine, PSA looks for evidence of doctoring, such as re-coloring or trimming.

If your cards pass these two steps, PSA grades the condition of each card on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being best.

After grading, PSA holders each card in its own tamper-evident case. A label within the case displays the card's pertinent information and unique certification number.[/B]

PSA is supposed to protect the consumer from purchasing doctored cards. At least that's what they are promoting. Is there any other reason to buy a PSA graded card?

[QUOTE=HarryLime;15384012]I completely understand the anger and frustration directed at PSA. It's obvious they haven't been using the most basic tools available to them to grade very high-dollar cards that would require them the most and they haven't been doing this for years.

The concept that PSA is public enemy #1 over the individuals that took a proactive effort to defraud people simply blows my mind. It's so foreign to me that it's not even something I would consider worth debating. I guess I just have to say "agree to disagree" and move on. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion.

Arthur[/QUOTE]

So in best case PSA is slabbing millions of dollars of fraud by accident? Never get cheated, right?

PSA has been giving high profile card doctors DIRECT access to PSA graders... ethical?

Much like the crooked 2 party political system we continue to support as a nation, there is far too much $$ on the line for any real change in regards to graded cards getting a big premium. Until enough people get pissed off about it- maybe.
BODA might as well be some great independent thinking moderate that takes the best ideas from both parties and incorporates them into a sensible platform that considers all Americans.. as soon as that person begins to ascend the political ranks they are promptly beat down by those who spent their career "paying their dues" to get rich.
[I][U]Not trying to go political here but history tells us that long established systems that make a lot of people rich don't exactly go down quietly.[/U][/I]

[QUOTE=Rooftop;15384053]PSA is supposed to protect the consumer from purchasing doctored cards. At least that's what they are promoting. Is there any other reason to buy a PSA graded card?[/QUOTE]
Yes. To get an opinion on the grade from someone who isn't selling the card. If I buy a PSA 10, I'm getting a card that may not be perfect, but shouldn't have visible flaws. If I buy a raw card, I might get a piece of cardboard that looks like a dog licked it.

This won't move forward if as a group we continue to make ridiculous statements and demands.

[QUOTE=Rooftop;15384053]Direct from PSA:

[B]PSA authenticates both sports and non-sports trading cards across all eras.

A series of PSA graders review your cards for authenticity. If genuine, PSA looks for evidence of doctoring, such as re-coloring or trimming.

If your cards pass these two steps, PSA grades the condition of each card on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being best.

After grading, PSA holders each card in its own tamper-evident case. A label within the case displays the card's pertinent information and unique certification number.[/B]

PSA is supposed to protect the consumer from purchasing doctored cards. At least that's what they are promoting. Is there any other reason to buy a PSA graded card?[/QUOTE]

This is just a general question for the board and I'm curious where people land on this.

Is it reasonable to expect 100% accuracy from PSA?

Arthur

[QUOTE=HarryLime;15384042]Just curious and honest question: is that how you view other types of crime? The market is to blame equally?

Arthur[/QUOTE]

No, this is a different animal for a lot of reasons.

What other crimes have the blessing/negligence/blind-eye/collusion of what is supposed to be the enforcer of the law (PSA)?

It's not independent, it's not third-party, and it is apparently very biased, but money talks...

[QUOTE=HarryLime;15384012]I completely understand the anger and frustration directed at PSA. It's obvious they haven't been using the most basic tools available to them to grade very high-dollar cards that would require them the most and they haven't been doing this for years.

The concept that PSA is public enemy #1 over the individuals that took a proactive effort to defraud people simply blows my mind. It's so foreign to me that it's not even something I would consider worth debating. I guess I just have to say "agree to disagree" and move on. Everyone is certainly entitled to their own opinion.

Arthur[/QUOTE]

The debate of who's worse; the quacks altering cards or their accomplices, labeling those items as good and clean; doesn't matter.
Both parties are equally responsibly, as the defrauding doesn't occur, without the partnership.

[QUOTE=NYRE2PECT;15384089]No, this is a different animal for a lot of reasons.

What other crimes have the blessing/negligence/blind-eye/collusion of what is supposed to be the enforcer of the law (PSA)?

It's not independent, it's not third-party, and it is apparently very biased, but money talks...[/QUOTE]

But PSA isn't the enforcer of the law, they're an authenticator. Authenticators are used with just about every item that can be transacted for money -- cars, homes, clothing, art, collectibles -- anything with a secondary market.

Arthur

Evan Mathis Trimming Anything and Everything to Sell via Probstein, PWCC, & COMC
 

Damn that Snider trim pisses me off. Firstly, I love 1956 Topps. Secondly, that was a really nice card he desecrated. What kind of jackass looks at the original and thinks “yeah I can cut that up for a grade bump”? The confidence of these buttwipes is alarming. Thirdly, it’s not even a high profile card compared to many others in the set.

The greed behind this whole thing is just unbelievable. Sadly the amount of money in the hobby (which exists because people really like sports cards) turns collectors into greedy turds who don’t see a problem with permanently reducing the number of these wonderful (at least for vintage) pop art pieces.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;15384075]Yes. To get an opinion on the grade from someone who isn't selling the card. If I buy a PSA 10, I'm getting a card that may not be perfect, but shouldn't have visible flaws. If I buy a raw card, I might get a piece of cardboard that looks like a dog licked it.

This won't move forward if as a group we continue to make ridiculous statements and demands.[/QUOTE]

That was 99.9% of the peoples view prior to BODA.

SO, you don't care if its been altered as long as it gets a certain # grade?

[QUOTE=HarryLime;15384083]This is just a general question for the board and I'm curious where people land on this.

Is it reasonable to expect 100% accuracy from PSA?

Arthur[/QUOTE]

Let me think, I'm paying an "expert" in the field to do something and get it right. Should I expect 100% accuracy? Should I expect 100% accuracy from someone filing my taxes? :doh::doh::doh:

If I personally alter 50 cards and send them to PSA hoping to get them passed and 50 come back as being altered. I'm probably not going to try it again.

At some point, someone from PSA, didn't do their job.

[QUOTE=Rooftop;15384139]That was 99.9% of the peoples view prior to BODA.

SO, you don't care if its been altered as long as it gets a certain # grade?[/QUOTE]
Is that what I said?

[QUOTE=Boo;15384142]Let me think, I'm paying an "expert" in the field to do something and get it right. Should I expect 100% accuracy? Should I expect 100% accuracy from someone filing my taxes? :doh::doh::doh:[/QUOTE]
What's your job? Must be nice to be perfect.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;15384165]Is that what I said?


What's your job? Must be nice to be perfect.[/QUOTE]

It is, thanks.

You're right, I shouldn't expect 100% accuracy in anything. :doh::doh::doh:

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;15384165]Is that what I said?


What's your job? Must be nice to be perfect.[/QUOTE]

Perfection is not realistic, I would agree there, but how about just being excellent, or even great, or even good....not sure how much farther down I need to keep going to get PSA's current level of randomized grading.

[QUOTE=IgnatiusJReilly;15384132]Damn that Snider trim pisses me off. Firstly, I love 1956 Topps. Secondly, that was a really nice card he desecrated. What kind of jackass looks at the original and thinks “yeah I can cut that up for a grade bump”? The confidence of these buttwipes is alarming. Thirdly, it’s not even a high profile card compared to many others in the set.

The greed behind this whole thing is just unbelievable. Sadly the amount of money in the hobby (which exists because people really like sports cards) turns collectors into greedy turds who don’t see a problem with permanently reducing the number of these wonderful (at least for vintage) pop art pieces.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]My sentiments exactly, but with more colorful language.

[QUOTE=NYRE2PECT;15384176]Perfection is not realistic, I would agree there, but how about just being excellent, or even great, or even good....not sure how much farther down I need to keep going to get PSA's current level of randomized grading.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I agree. It is reasonable to demand better from them.

It is not reasonable to demand that the company cease operations if they can’t deliver perfection, and that the market pay more for raw cards than slabbed cards. You’re fighting a battle you will never win if those are your end goals.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;15384165]Is that what I said?


What's your job? Must be nice to be perfect.[/QUOTE]


you said:


To get an opinion on the grade from someone who isn't selling the card. If I buy a PSA 10, I'm getting a card that may not be perfect, but shouldn't have visible flaws. If I buy a raw card, I might get a piece of cardboard that looks like a dog licked it.


Sure would be nice to know if its been altered or not

[QUOTE=NYRE2PECT;15384176]Perfection is not realistic, I would agree there, but how about just being excellent, or even great, or even good....not sure how much farther down I need to keep going to get PSA's current level of randomized grading.[/QUOTE]For quite some time, PSA touted its grading as the "gold standard." I guess now it's merely an opinion among many (and not a very good or objective one at that). Doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Instead of setting market standards, TPGs now follow the dictates of the market. They have become purely reactive.

PCGS has trained coin dealers and collectors to buy and sell the label. Most coins trade as widgits or commodities.

PSA/BGS is training the average card collector to eventually accept the alterations.

The few, the proud, and the informed (maybe 10%?) will bow out never to return.

[QUOTE=Rooftop;15384190]you said:


To get an opinion on the grade from someone who isn't selling the card. If I buy a PSA 10, I'm getting a card that may not be perfect, but shouldn't have visible flaws. If I buy a raw card, I might get a piece of cardboard that looks like a dog licked it.


Sure would be nice to know if its been altered or not[/QUOTE]
My statement was made under the assumption that the card is not altered. Everyone should know my stance on this issue by now.

Do your due diligence.
Don’t buy from the known trimmers or consigners the trimmers use.
Don’t buy something that is too good to be true.
Don’t pay a premium for a slab that is more than you are comfortable paying.

This has been my approach for the last year. I am very happy with my collection . I am also very happy with the progress made on this issue. I would like to see more progress happen. But like I said, you must come to the table with realistic expectations.

[QUOTE=unclemonkey;15384216]PCGS has trained coin dealers and collectors to buy and sell the label. Most coins trade as widgits or commodities.

[B]PSA/BGS is training the average card collector to eventually accept the alterations.[/B]

The few, the proud, and the informed (maybe 10%?) will bow out never to return.[/QUOTE]You're probably right about that. Their attitude and responses to the crisis thus far definitely point in that direction. Denial married with indignation. It's the opposite of the way a responsible and ethical business would operate.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;15384075]Yes. To get an opinion on the grade from someone who isn't selling the card. If I buy a PSA 10, I'm getting a card that may not be perfect, but shouldn't have visible flaws. If I buy a raw card, I might get a piece of cardboard that looks like a dog licked it.



This won't move forward if as a group we continue to make ridiculous statements and demands.[/QUOTE]



The obvious point is there are licked cards in PSA 10 slabs anyway.

[QUOTE=unclemonkey;15384216]PCGS has trained coin dealers and collectors to buy and sell the label. Most coins trade as widgits or commodities.

PSA/BGS is training the average card collector to eventually accept the alterations.

The few, the proud, and the informed (maybe 10%?) will bow out never to return.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Once a card is slabbed it becomes a commodity. I think once the verdict of the FBI is done and BODA tired of outing cards, things will mostly go back to what it was before. A lot of collectors will still collect labels and will be OK with it as long as they sell to the next guy. I really am rooting for a big market shift but I am not optimistic. PWCC will do some behind the scenes deal and stay in business, the TPGs will just keep on trucking along.

[QUOTE=MoreToppsPlease;15384290]The obvious point is there are licked cards in PSA 10 slabs anyway.[/QUOTE]

:D

You should know when you are being trolled. Not everything is literal.

Do you think people are using this for purposes of tax evasion as well? Like how art appreciates so much over time the same will be with these cards?

[QUOTE=unclemonkey;15384297]:D

You should know when you are being trolled. Not everything is literal.[/QUOTE]
Sadly, I actually received a Lebron Optic Purple two months ago that I thought was licked by a dog. Turned out he thought his kids got to it. It was definitely licked by something.

[QUOTE=Rogue;15384302]Do you think people are using this for purposes of tax evasion as well? Like how art appreciates so much over time the same will be with these cards?[/QUOTE]
Without a doubt in my mind there is money laundering and tax evasion involved in all of this as well.

[QUOTE=unclemonkey;15384216]PCGS has trained coin dealers and collectors to buy and sell the label. Most coins trade as widgits or commodities.

PSA/BGS is training the average card collector to eventually accept the alterations.

The few, the proud, and the informed (maybe 10%?) will bow out never to return.[/QUOTE]



A hobby where the third party reviewer becomes the first party (replacing the collectible) requires either regulation or new impartial third party reviewers.

Independent, third party “white hat” card doctors that ethically publish how effective grading companies detect their alterations are completely necessary.

[QUOTE=unclemonkey;15384297]:D



You should know when you are being trolled. Not everything is literal.[/QUOTE]



I was continuing to use the same metaphor!

[QUOTE=Scottish Punk;15384295]Agreed. Once a card is slabbed it becomes a commodity. I think once the verdict of the FBI is done and BODA tired of outing cards, things will mostly go back to what it was before. A lot of collectors will still collect labels and will be OK with it as long as they sell to the next guy. I really am rooting for a big market shift but I am not optimistic. PWCC will do some behind the scenes deal and stay in business, [B]the TPGs will just keep on trucking along[/B].[/QUOTE]

In the future, I don't know how Joe Orlando or any other TPG bigwig could stand in front of a large gathering of collectors and crow about how they are looking out for the best interests of the hobby.

Actually, let me rephrase that -- I don't know how ole Joe could do it with a straight face.

[QUOTE=MoreToppsPlease;15384322]A hobby where the third party reviewer becomes the first party (replacing the collectible) requires either regulation or new impartial third party reviewers.

Independent, third party “white hat” card doctors that ethically publish how effective grading companies detect their alterations are completely necessary.[/QUOTE]

They would be banned after one published report.

[QUOTE=MoreToppsPlease;15384327]I was continuing to use the same metaphor![/QUOTE]

Ah... not sure whether to feel good or bad about my lasting contribution being "licking" added to the lexicon of card grading.

[QUOTE=pspa123;15384339]They would be banned after one published report.[/QUOTE]

Not if the grading companies were *required* to allow submissions from *registered* white hats.

In other words, grading companies would be forced by the feds to allow third parties to check the validity of their "work" given they've failed so miserably in doing that work in the past. So, enter the "white hats" who work like Consumer Reports. These white hats would completely document everything and ethically publish their work where it will be easy to locate.

In order for the grading company "police men" (ha ha) to continue to operate, they've shown they need to be policed themselves.

[QUOTE=MoreToppsPlease;15384442]Not if the grading companies were *required* to allow submissions from *registered* white hats.

In other words, grading companies would be forced by the feds to allow third parties to check the validity of their "work" given they've failed so miserably in doing that work in the past. So, enter the "white hats" who work like Consumer Reports. These white hats would completely document everything and ethically publish their work where it will be easy to locate.

In order for the grading company "police men" (ha ha) to continue to operate, they've shown they need to be policed themselves.[/QUOTE]

Forced by the "feds"? In what context, are you suggesting TPGs would agree to this as part of a plea bargain? What crime are you contemplating they are going to be charged with? The "feds" don't just force companies to do things in connection with an investigation.

Hopefully this doesn’t get swept under the rug, especially now involving a fairly known former NFL player.

[QUOTE=MoreToppsPlease;15384442]Not if the grading companies were *required* to allow submissions from *registered* white hats.

In other words, grading companies would be forced by the feds to allow third parties to check the validity of their "work" given they've failed so miserably in doing that work in the past. So, enter the "white hats" who work like Consumer Reports. These white hats would completely document everything and ethically publish their work where it will be easy to locate.

In order for the grading company "police men" (ha ha) to continue to operate, they've shown they need to be policed themselves.[/QUOTE]
Every suggestion you have gets crazier and crazier. You can’t honestly believe this is realistic.

[QUOTE=pip;15384237]You're probably right about that. Their attitude and responses to the crisis thus far definitely point in that direction. Denial married with indignation. It's the opposite of the way a responsible and ethical business would operate.[/QUOTE]

This is David Hall's and Joe Orlando's vision, I fear. Cater to the insiders and stifle any and all hard questions and dissent. When necessary, play ostrich and deny. You can see Joe's instincts even on a recent analyst call, where he directed the operator to pass over a tough questioner. I doubt it will meaningfully change under current management.

[QUOTE=3124508 on COMC;15384044]PSA would hold no blame if they didn’t claim to not grade altered cards. They need to change their grading standards and then start issuing refunds.[/QUOTE]



especially coming from 312.....


one of the top posts of 2019


there's certainly more that could be added, but concise and right to the point.

[QUOTE=pspa123;15384612]This is David Hall's and Joe Orlando's vision, I fear. Cater to the insiders and stifle any and all hard questions and dissent. When necessary, play ostrich and deny. You can see Joe's instincts even on a recent analyst call, where he directed the operator to pass over a tough questioner. I doubt it will meaningfully change under current management.[/QUOTE]
It is the right play for their company. The customers who have been wronged are not customers of PSA. They are customers of the trimmers. PSA is forcing those customers to go back to who they purchased the item from, with few exceptions. And now they are just flatly denying that some of these cards are even trimmed to begin with.

PSA is making it clear now that if you want restitution from the company, you will have to go through the courts to get it. How many have the means to do that? I suspect the ones who do are getting taken care of either by PSA or by Brent, etc.

The question I have going forward is what kind of legal weight does PSA's guarantee carry?

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;15384630]It is the right play for their company. The customers who have been wronged are not customers of PSA. They are customers of the trimmers. PSA is forcing those customers to go back to who they purchased the item from, with few exceptions. And now they are just flatly denying that some of these cards are even trimmed to begin with.

PSA is making it clear now that if you want restitution from the company, you will have to go through the courts to get it. How many have the means to do that? I suspect the ones who do are getting taken care of either by PSA or by Brent, etc.

The question I have going forward is what kind of legal weight does PSA's guarantee carry?[/QUOTE]

They control the guarantee because they can always say our graders stand behind the grade, and force you to sue them (in California) over what is still an opinion. Good luck with that.

I just dealt with a slightly different situation, where there were two cards with the same cert number, a high grade major rookie. The only reasonable explanation was that one was a Mexican fake. As I understand it, they recerted BOTH.

[QUOTE=pspa123;15384633]They control the guarantee because they can always say our graders stand behind the grade, and force you to sue them (in California) over what is still an opinion. Good luck with that.

I just dealt with a slightly different situation, where there were two cards with the same cert number, a high grade major rookie. The only reasonable explanation was that one was a Mexican fake. As I understand it, they recerted BOTH.[/QUOTE]

For real? They potentially gave a new cert # to a bad card possibly?

[QUOTE=tconte;15384709]For real? They potentially gave a new cert # to a bad card possibly?[/QUOTE]

For real, bro. And they knew the background when they recerted the second. I guess, possibly, there was another explanation for the duplicate certs?

[QUOTE=pspa123;15384728]For real, bro. And they knew the background when they recerted the second. I guess, possibly, there was another explanation for the duplicate certs?[/QUOTE]

Mechanical error, just ask any PSA lemming.:D

[QUOTE=pspa123;15384633]They control the guarantee because they can always say our graders stand behind the grade, and force you to sue them (in California) over what is still an opinion. Good luck with that.

I just dealt with a slightly different situation, where there were two cards with the same cert number, a high grade major rookie. The only reasonable explanation was that one was a Mexican fake. As I understand it, they recerted BOTH.[/QUOTE]That's incredible -- certifying a card that was not encapsulated or graded by their company. I would think that this single act could open them up to all kinds of liability. Even a person off the street can understand the incongruity that there cannot be two different cards with the same serial number. And if PSA cannot determine that one is not legitimate then they have zero standing as a company that certifies authentic sports cards.

[QUOTE=pip;15384757]That's incredible -- certifying a card that was not encapsulated or graded by their company. I would think that this single act could open them up to all kinds of liability. Even a person off the street can understand the incongruity that there cannot be two different cards with the same serial number. And if PSA cannot determine that one is not legitimate then they have zero standing as a company that certifies authentic sports cards.[/QUOTE]

It was a shock to me. I am just hopeful either my information about the first card being recerted was wrong, or there is some explanation I have overlooked.

To be clear, as I understand it the Mexican "fakes" are fake flips and slabs, but the cards may be altered and authentic not counterfeits.

[QUOTE=KhalDrogo;15384630]It is the right play for their company. [B]The customers who have been wronged are not customers of PSA.[/B] They are customers of the trimmers. PSA is forcing those customers to go back to who they purchased the item from, with few exceptions. And now they are just flatly denying that some of these cards are even trimmed to begin with.

PSA is making it clear now that if you want restitution from the company, you will have to go through the courts to get it. How many have the means to do that? I suspect the ones who do are getting taken care of either by PSA or by Brent, etc.

The question I have going forward is what kind of legal weight does PSA's guarantee carry?[/QUOTE]


they (the end purchaser) [B][SIZE="3"]RELIED[/SIZE][/B] on psa authenticating it as non- altered.

[QUOTE=vintg;15384776]they (the end purchaser) [B][SIZE="3"]RELIED[/SIZE][/B] on psa authenticating it as non- altered.[/QUOTE]
Which doesn't contradict what you bolded.

what about the hundreds of thousands of cards bought at card shows over the years
that the purchaser has NO IDEA who the seller was ???

makes no sense. purchaser is in possession of a PSA slabbed card.

their has to be culpability on their part.

[QUOTE=HarryLime;15384083]This is just a general question for the board and I'm curious where people land on this.

Is it reasonable to expect 100% accuracy from PSA?

Arthur[/QUOTE]

I liken it to purchasing a home and having a home inspector take a look at the property before I drop a lot of money on it.
Would I expect them to be 100% accurate?
Probably not, but I damn sure would expect them to be looking out for my interests, not the sellers.

[QUOTE=Astros19;15384919]I liken it to purchasing a home and having a home inspector take a look at the property before I drop a lot of money on it.
Would I expect them to be 100% accurate?
Probably not, but I damn sure would expect them to be looking out for my interests, not the sellers.[/QUOTE]

This is a great analogy. The expectation of 100% authentication is unreasonable. However, if they are not working to protect the buyers and in fact are colluding with certain customers, that is fraud, plain and simple.

On a side note, can we get a new forum just for PSA/BGS posts? I think it's annoying to have these in each section. It's good stuff, and useful, just should be separated.

[QUOTE=JoeAdam;15384941]This is a great analogy. The expectation of 100% authentication is unreasonable. However, if they are not working to protect the buyers and in fact are colluding with certain customers, that is fraud, plain and simple.

On a side note, can we get a new forum just for PSA/BGS posts? I think it's annoying to have these in each section. It's good stuff, and useful, just should be separated.[/QUOTE]

The buyer pays the home inspector. The submitter, not the marketplace buyer, pays TPGs. World of difference.

[QUOTE=pspa123;15384952]The buyer pays the home inspector. The submitter, not the marketplace buyer, pays TPGs. World of difference.[/QUOTE]

True. But indirectly the buyers (marketplace) pays the TPGs because if the buyers didn't see the added value the sellers would never submit in the first place. I understand it's different, but the TPG's have to look out for the buyers because if they don't then they don't have a business.

[QUOTE=JoeAdam;15384957]True. But indirectly the buyers (marketplace) pays the TPGs because if the buyers didn't see the added value the sellers would never submit in the first place. I understand it's different, but the TPG's have to look out for the buyers because if they don't then they don't have a business.[/QUOTE]

They seem to have a very good business.